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Post subject: LOTR cultures in comparison to Historical Equivalents Posted: January 26th, 2006, 9:37 pm |
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Joined: 26 January 2006 Posts: 6
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It is often deemed that certain middle earth cultures/kingdoms can be directly associated with real historical equivalents.
This is partly due to things Tolkien said, the basis for some tolkien languages and film adaptation.
For example;
Rohan - Can be compared to the Anglo-Saxons, the language is very similar (Westu Hal > Waes Hal), dress, customs, architecture. The film adaptation of Rohan especially just shouted out Anglo-Saxon to me.
Hobbits - Can be compared to the rural English folk. Living in Oxfordshire, England myself i can see where Tolkien may have got his inspiration since he studied just up the road. Where i live is very much like the shire. The film adaptation of the shire was excellent and i almost felt that was Rural England not so long ago. Pipe smoking, real ale etc..
Breefolk - Well Bree looks Medieval in the film, in the book it has that feel to it as well. Just a late medieval town with an English setting similar to the Shire.
Dwarves - Can be compared to the Vikings somewhat but are obviously not men. But Tolkien too inspiration from Norse Mythology and this was the basis of his Dwarves. Though the Dwarves in Norse Mythology are quite different to those in middle earth.
Elves - Cannot comment on the Elves, likely not related to any historical culture apart from the fact that Elves are a big part of the Norse cosmos and Norse Mythology. Called Alf in Norse Myth they reside in Alfheim where the god Frey is ruler of that domain. Any ideas?
Haradrim - Remind me of the Persians with the Oliphaunts. Or at least another middle-eastern culture, the influences are noticeable in the film but not much emphasis is put on it.
Easterlings - Remind me of the Egyptians or similar counterpart. Perhaps even slightly Roman. Not sure, but from the film it is hard to see what they were based on.
Gondor - I hit a bit of a problem with Gondor. You might associate them with the Greeks or Romans but i find it does not quite fit.
I really do like the interpretation of Gondor and Minas Tirith in the films, but that does not help much when it comes to similarities.
The Architecture used is a mix of Roman and Greek but the culture reminds me of a medieval era. The armour and dress does look slightly Roman or Spartan (Tower Guards) but for example Aragorn never looks or feels at all Roman or Greek, more just a Medieval/Saxon warrior/king.
Anyway, I find these comparisons rather interesting to discuss and think about. Its clear that Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration from history & legend of various cultures to create his own world. Never the less, Tolkien remains a genius and his work is all the better for using such inspiration.
The films in themselves are brilliant but they are also imo a great adaptation of the books and i could not see what could have been done better considering time restraints and costs. While the comparisons i have made are my own, it is certain that the film used influences from our own history/culture to make middle earth familiar on screen.
I would very much like to hear your views about what real cultures can be associated with middle earth cultures?
Regards
Aldgorn
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Post subject: Posted: January 27th, 2006, 1:13 pm |
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Joined: 03 December 2005 Posts: 5082 Location: UK
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Elves.. hmm *thinks carefully*
It's a mixture of cultures I believe
It reminds me of random welsh mytholgy
Yet a hint of medieval in their clothes
Hmm.....
_________________ Avatar by lamiai
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Post subject: Posted: January 27th, 2006, 2:27 pm |
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Joined: 09 January 2006 Posts: 233 Location: Rivendell, Middle Earth
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OMG! this is cool...
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Fan of. Aragorn, Arwen, Fellowhip, Hermione, History, Hobbits, Maidens of LotR, Unity, Pevensies, Pippin, Sam
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Post subject: Posted: January 27th, 2006, 9:32 pm |
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Joined: 26 January 2006 Posts: 6
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Yes, i was thinking they had a rather celtic influence to them. This being later celtic and not the gauls.
Anyone got ideas about Gondor? I looked through Minas Tirith pictures and the arches and columns look roman/medieval but in marble.
Still, i cannot put Gondor as a comparison to the Romans since the general feel is not right between them. I guess it is just a mix of influences, Roman, Medieval and prehaps Anglo-Saxon.
Regards
Aldgorn
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Post subject: Posted: January 28th, 2006, 3:55 pm |
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Joined: 09 July 2005 Posts: 9460 Location: in the temple of love
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Gondor might be Medival England of France - and I´ve always pictured Elves like Rome/Ancient Greece.
_________________ <center>[font=Times New Roman]<img src="http://tinyurl.com/63ongu"><br><br>From sorrow & pain I find my strength ... the more pain I feel, the more I see /// July the 4th 2008, first day of my life...<br><br>I met Eru on September 5th 2006 ♥ (and April 15th 2008!)<br><br>Censorship Causes Blindness</center>[/font]
Last edited by Antigone on January 28th, 2006, 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Posted: January 28th, 2006, 4:34 pm |
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Joined: 03 December 2005 Posts: 5082 Location: UK
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The gauls weren't welsh
I've been watching LOTR and have reliased that Elrond's headband seems very celtic to me....
_________________ Avatar by lamiai
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Post subject: Posted: January 28th, 2006, 9:23 pm |
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Joined: 26 January 2006 Posts: 6
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I know.
The Gauls were from france, but still come under as celtics.
What i was saying is that the elves remind me more of medieval celtic than they do bronze age celtic.
Elves as Greek.. hmm, interesting. From the films at least i do not see many similarities but prehaps the book for you had greek > elves associations.
Was Minas Tirith / Osgiliath made from marble? It looks like it. I also think the gondorian film architecture looks like a glorified abbey or cathedral in parts. Also reminds me of quite alot of Neo-Classical buildings around Europe.
Regards
Aldgorn
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Post subject: Posted: January 29th, 2006, 1:34 pm |
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Joined: 17 June 2005 Posts: 844
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Aldgorn wrote: Was Minas Tirith / Osgiliath made from marble? It looks like it. I also think the gondorian film architecture looks like a glorified abbey or cathedral in parts. Also reminds me of quite alot of Neo-Classical buildings around Europe.
I've always thought of Gondor as along those lines. Kind of continental/European, but still with an Anglo-Saxon 'northern' mentality thrown in. Gondor does have a Roman 'flavour', but the two cultures aren't really comparable.
I don't really see the elves as coming from a Greek culture...more like Celtic (as people have already mentioned), especially Welsh culture. I can also see the connection between the Norse mythology and the elves of Tolkien. Very interesting topic. I am looking forward to other people's opinions.
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Post subject: Posted: January 29th, 2006, 9:57 pm |
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Joined: 26 January 2006 Posts: 6
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On the official LOTR movie site they have various behind the scenes videos to view. One is about Minas Tirith, as far as the production team were concerned Minas Tirith was inspired from Classical architecture with Roman and Greek influences. They also noted that it also had other influences which gives it a rather unique feel.. that was the intention.
It worked
As Tolkien intended middle-earth it to be a mythology for the British prehaps it was influenced through the Romano-British aspect of history.
Roman architecture mixed with Celtic culture?
Regards
Aldgorn
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Post subject: Posted: January 29th, 2006, 10:31 pm |
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Joined: 17 June 2005 Posts: 844
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Aldgorn wrote: As Tolkien intended middle-earth it to be a mythology for the British prehaps it was influenced through the Romano-British aspect of history. Roman architecture mixed with Celtic culture?
That certainly makes sense. I think the mixture of cultures and architecture gives Gondor a depth and really mythic feeling. It is not a foreign culture to us because it draws on our own historical cultures (Roman/British/Celtic), we are able to connect more deeply with Gondor and her people. I am truly fascinated by Gondor, it's my favourite culture from Middle-earth.
I think Rohan is interesting too, and are very Anglo-Saxon and also viking-ish. I didn't think the Anglo-Saxons were very much into horses, but if you think about it, they really were...there's the White Horse of Uffington, and other such images of horses carved into chalk hillsides. And didn't Odin ride an 8-legged horse? They really venerated the horse as a deity, like the Rohirrim revere their horses.
What about comparing the Rohirrim to the Mongols and their horses? The Mongols fought and lived on their horses--literally. I think a lot of similarities can be drawn between the two cultures. Plus, Rohan is very wide and flat, like the steppes. Perhaps Tolkien did not have the Mongols in mind when creating the Rohirrim, but I can see some parallels...
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Post subject: Posted: January 30th, 2006, 1:11 pm |
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Joined: 26 January 2006 Posts: 6
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Yea, that is true.
But the Anglo-Saxons were the basis for the Rohirrim. The very language of Rohan is drawn from Old English. Tolkien studied Beowulf and was a professor of Anglo-Saxon, this was applied to the culture of Rohan.
- The Anglo-Saxon and Germanic dead did get buried with their horse. (if the person was of high status)
- Hengist & Horsa, the great legendary leaders of the first Anglo-Saxons means Stallion & Horse.
- The Sutton Hoo helmet had depictions of men riding horses (prehaps Odin).
- Images of Horses were raised to almost religious veneration. Hengist and Horsa have been described as possible horse gods.
- The Celts and Anglo-Saxons are credited with the creation of various White Horses over ancient Britain, Uffington is a good example. Tolkien would have been very aware of the Uffington horse since it is not far from Oxford.
Here is a link with more detail; http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/horse.html
I find that films do a brilliant job in depicting the Anglo-Saxons, personally i have a passion for the Anglo-Saxons history and culture. I am from England so that might be a reason for it, very strong ancestral ties lie here for me.
If i had to make a movie about the Anglo-Saxons, it would be almost identical to the people of Rohan.
Another interesting fact is that the Golden Hall Meduseld is connected with the AS word Maeduselde which means Mead Hall, the poem Beowulf describes a mead hall of which "the light of it shines far across the land".
Regards
Aldgorn
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Post subject: Posted: January 30th, 2006, 7:21 pm |
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Joined: 17 June 2005 Posts: 844
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^ Ah yes, the Golden Hall did remind me a lot of the hall at Heorot in Beowulf. That's an interesting website.
Another interesting parallel is when Boromir's body is set in a boat with his sword and the weapons of the orcs he's conquered. That is also another heathen custom found in Beowulf--placing the dead body in a boat and letting it drift away...rather like giving up the body to Fate? I think the usage of funeral boats is fascinating. A lot of cultures use the boat as a sort of way to get into the afterlife. A boat could symbolise that journey into another world...consider Frodo leaves on a ship to Valinor.
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Post subject: Posted: January 31st, 2006, 10:42 am |
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Joined: 26 January 2006 Posts: 6
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I always considered Boromirs funeral boat to be sending him back to his homeland down the great river. Since the fellowship did not have any means to bury him in a suitiable fashion at Amon Hen. But yes, commiting him to fate, sending him to nature.
I see the funeral boat used by the heathens alot like Frodo going to the Undying Lands, but it was also of cultural importance since alot of them were seafarers.
Certainly both can be compared.
I was watching the Appendixes on ROTK SE. Minas Tirith was based on a few real world locations but basically a blend of medieval/roman/greek architecture and culture.
Here are some pictures;
Charlemagne's Chapel
Note: The black and white archways are just like the ones at the Kings Hall in Minas Tirith.
Mont St Micheal, France
Regards
Aldgorn
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Post subject: Posted: January 31st, 2006, 3:08 pm |
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Joined: 17 June 2005 Posts: 844
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You know, just last night, I was thinking Minas Tirith had a decidedly Romanesque air to it (especially the King's hall).
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Post subject: Posted: February 22nd, 2006, 11:24 am |
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Joined: 09 January 2006 Posts: 233 Location: Rivendell, Middle Earth
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ooh! sorry, I just have to say that I went to Mont St. Michel! i just realized that it IS similar to Gondor! OMG! sry...
_________________ <BR>
Fan of. Aragorn, Arwen, Fellowhip, Hermione, History, Hobbits, Maidens of LotR, Unity, Pevensies, Pippin, Sam
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Post subject: Posted: February 22nd, 2006, 12:28 pm |
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Joined: 04 June 2005 Posts: 548 Location: Uruguay Country:
Gender: Female
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Aldgorn wrote: I always considered Boromirs funeral boat to be sending him back to his homeland down the great river. Since the fellowship did not have any means to bury him in a suitiable fashion at Amon Hen. But yes, commiting him to fate, sending him to nature. I see the funeral boat used by the heathens alot like Frodo going to the Undying Lands, but it was also of cultural importance since alot of them were seafarers. Certainly both can be compared. I was watching the Appendixes on ROTK SE. Minas Tirith was based on a few real world locations but basically a blend of medieval/roman/greek architecture and culture. Here are some pictures; Charlemagne's ChapelNote: The black and white archways are just like the ones at the Kings Hall in Minas Tirith. Mont St Micheal, FranceRegards Aldgorn wow, those are beautiful! and very similar to Gondor and Minas Tirith..I've noticed that Minas Tirith seems to be greek/roman based somehow...only cuz Isaw the movie Troy and the citadel was very much alike..the style is very similar Quote: Rohan - Can be compared to the Anglo-Saxons, the language is very similar (Westu Hal > Waes Hal), dress, customs, architecture. The film adaptation of Rohan especially just shouted out Anglo-Saxon to me. same here, the language is very similar to Old English Quote: Hobbits - Can be compared to the rural English folk. Living in Oxfordshire, England myself i can see where Tolkien may have got his inspiration since he studied just up the road. Where i live is very much like the shire. The film adaptation of the shire was excellent and i almost felt that was Rural England not so long ago. Pipe smoking, real ale etc.. the whole place, the Shire and the music, gave me the idea that it was Irish based..the music gave it away, lol Quote: Elves - Cannot comment on the Elves, likely not related to any historical culture apart from the fact that Elves are a big part of the Norse cosmos and Norse Mythology. Called Alf in Norse Myth they reside in Alfheim where the god Frey is ruler of that domain. Any ideas? the language of Elvish (mostly Sindarin) is VERY similar to the Gaelic dialect..that might give u an idea Quote: Gondor - I hit a bit of a problem with Gondor. You might associate them with the Greeks or Romans but i find it does not quite fit. I really do like the interpretation of Gondor and Minas Tirith in the films, but that does not help much when it comes to similarities The Architecture used is a mix of Roman and Greek but the culture reminds me of a medieval era. The armour and dress does look slightly Roman or Spartan (Tower Guards) but for example Aragorn never looks or feels at all Roman or Greek, more just a Medieval/Saxon warrior/king.
you're right, tho I still see some greek/roman inspiration there, as far as architecture goes and tha armours are deffinitely medieval
.
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