Arwen-Undomiel.com :: View topic - LOTR cultures in comparison to Historical Equivalents

I always considered Boromirs funeral boat to be sending him back to his homeland down the great river. Since the fellowship did not have any means to bury him in a suitiable fashion at Amon Hen. But yes, commiting him to fate, sending him to nature.

I see the funeral boat used by the heathens alot like Frodo going to the Undying Lands, but it was also of cultural importance since alot of them were seafarers.

Certainly both can be compared.

I was watching the Appendixes on ROTK SE. Minas Tirith was based on a few real world locations but basically a blend of medieval/roman/greek architecture and culture.

Here are some pictures;

Charlemagne's Chapel

Note: The black and white archways are just like the ones at the Kings Hall in Minas Tirith.

Mont St Micheal, France

Regards

Aldgorn

Rohan - Can be compared to the Anglo-Saxons, the language is very similar (Westu Hal > Waes Hal), dress, customs, architecture. The film adaptation of Rohan especially just shouted out Anglo-Saxon to me.

Hobbits - Can be compared to the rural English folk. Living in Oxfordshire, England myself i can see where Tolkien may have got his inspiration since he studied just up the road. Where i live is very much like the shire. The film adaptation of the shire was excellent and i almost felt that was Rural England not so long ago. Pipe smoking, real ale etc..

Elves - Cannot comment on the Elves, likely not related to any historical culture apart from the fact that Elves are a big part of the Norse cosmos and Norse Mythology. Called Alf in Norse Myth they reside in Alfheim where the god Frey is ruler of that domain. Any ideas?

Gondor - I hit a bit of a problem with Gondor. You might associate them with the Greeks or Romans but i find it does not quite fit.
I really do like the interpretation of Gondor and Minas Tirith in the films, but that does not help much when it comes to similarities
The Architecture used is a mix of Roman and Greek but the culture reminds me of a medieval era. The armour and dress does look slightly Roman or Spartan (Tower Guards) but for example Aragorn never looks or feels at all Roman or Greek, more just a Medieval/Saxon warrior/king.

Author:	Aldgorn [ January 26th, 2006, 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	LOTR cultures in comparison to Historical Equivalents
It is often deemed that certain middle earth cultures/kingdoms can be directly associated with real historical equivalents. This is partly due to things Tolkien said, the basis for some tolkien languages and film adaptation. For example; Rohan - Can be compared to the Anglo-Saxons, the language is very similar (Westu Hal > Waes Hal), dress, customs, architecture. The film adaptation of Rohan especially just shouted out Anglo-Saxon to me. Hobbits - Can be compared to the rural English folk. Living in Oxfordshire, England myself i can see where Tolkien may have got his inspiration since he studied just up the road. Where i live is very much like the shire. The film adaptation of the shire was excellent and i almost felt that was Rural England not so long ago. Pipe smoking, real ale etc.. Breefolk - Well Bree looks Medieval in the film, in the book it has that feel to it as well. Just a late medieval town with an English setting similar to the Shire. Dwarves - Can be compared to the Vikings somewhat but are obviously not men. But Tolkien too inspiration from Norse Mythology and this was the basis of his Dwarves. Though the Dwarves in Norse Mythology are quite different to those in middle earth. Elves - Cannot comment on the Elves, likely not related to any historical culture apart from the fact that Elves are a big part of the Norse cosmos and Norse Mythology. Called Alf in Norse Myth they reside in Alfheim where the god Frey is ruler of that domain. Any ideas? Haradrim - Remind me of the Persians with the Oliphaunts. Or at least another middle-eastern culture, the influences are noticeable in the film but not much emphasis is put on it. Easterlings - Remind me of the Egyptians or similar counterpart. Perhaps even slightly Roman. Not sure, but from the film it is hard to see what they were based on. Gondor - I hit a bit of a problem with Gondor. You might associate them with the Greeks or Romans but i find it does not quite fit. I really do like the interpretation of Gondor and Minas Tirith in the films, but that does not help much when it comes to similarities. The Architecture used is a mix of Roman and Greek but the culture reminds me of a medieval era. The armour and dress does look slightly Roman or Spartan (Tower Guards) but for example Aragorn never looks or feels at all Roman or Greek, more just a Medieval/Saxon warrior/king. Anyway, I find these comparisons rather interesting to discuss and think about. Its clear that Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration from history & legend of various cultures to create his own world. Never the less, Tolkien remains a genius and his work is all the better for using such inspiration. The films in themselves are brilliant but they are also imo a great adaptation of the books and i could not see what could have been done better considering time restraints and costs. While the comparisons i have made are my own, it is certain that the film used influences from our own history/culture to make middle earth familiar on screen. I would very much like to hear your views about what real cultures can be associated with middle earth cultures? Regards Aldgorn

Author:	Galasriniel [ January 27th, 2006, 1:13 pm ]
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Elves.. hmm thinks carefully It's a mixture of cultures I believe It reminds me of random welsh mytholgy Yet a hint of medieval in their clothes Hmm.....

Author:	Maya [ January 27th, 2006, 2:27 pm ]
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OMG! this is cool...

Author:	Aldgorn [ January 27th, 2006, 9:32 pm ]
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Yes, i was thinking they had a rather celtic influence to them. This being later celtic and not the gauls. Anyone got ideas about Gondor? I looked through Minas Tirith pictures and the arches and columns look roman/medieval but in marble. Still, i cannot put Gondor as a comparison to the Romans since the general feel is not right between them. I guess it is just a mix of influences, Roman, Medieval and prehaps Anglo-Saxon. Regards Aldgorn

Author:	Antigone [ January 28th, 2006, 3:55 pm ]
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Gondor might be Medival England of France - and I´ve always pictured Elves like Rome/Ancient Greece.

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Author:	Galasriniel [ January 28th, 2006, 4:34 pm ]
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The gauls weren't welsh I've been watching LOTR and have reliased that Elrond's headband seems very celtic to me....

Author:	Aldgorn [ January 28th, 2006, 9:23 pm ]
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I know. The Gauls were from france, but still come under as celtics. What i was saying is that the elves remind me more of medieval celtic than they do bronze age celtic. Elves as Greek.. hmm, interesting. From the films at least i do not see many similarities but prehaps the book for you had greek > elves associations. Was Minas Tirith / Osgiliath made from marble? It looks like it. I also think the gondorian film architecture looks like a glorified abbey or cathedral in parts. Also reminds me of quite alot of Neo-Classical buildings around Europe. Regards Aldgorn

Author:	vikingmaiden [ January 29th, 2006, 1:34 pm ]
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Aldgorn wrote: Was Minas Tirith / Osgiliath made from marble? It looks like it. I also think the gondorian film architecture looks like a glorified abbey or cathedral in parts. Also reminds me of quite alot of Neo-Classical buildings around Europe. I've always thought of Gondor as along those lines. Kind of continental/European, but still with an Anglo-Saxon 'northern' mentality thrown in. Gondor does have a Roman 'flavour', but the two cultures aren't really comparable. I don't really see the elves as coming from a Greek culture...more like Celtic (as people have already mentioned), especially Welsh culture. I can also see the connection between the Norse mythology and the elves of Tolkien. Very interesting topic. I am looking forward to other people's opinions.

Author:	Aldgorn [ January 29th, 2006, 9:57 pm ]
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On the official LOTR movie site they have various behind the scenes videos to view. One is about Minas Tirith, as far as the production team were concerned Minas Tirith was inspired from Classical architecture with Roman and Greek influences. They also noted that it also had other influences which gives it a rather unique feel.. that was the intention. It worked As Tolkien intended middle-earth it to be a mythology for the British prehaps it was influenced through the Romano-British aspect of history. Roman architecture mixed with Celtic culture? Regards Aldgorn

Author:	Aldgorn [ January 30th, 2006, 1:11 pm ]
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Yea, that is true. But the Anglo-Saxons were the basis for the Rohirrim. The very language of Rohan is drawn from Old English. Tolkien studied Beowulf and was a professor of Anglo-Saxon, this was applied to the culture of Rohan. - The Anglo-Saxon and Germanic dead did get buried with their horse. (if the person was of high status) - Hengist & Horsa, the great legendary leaders of the first Anglo-Saxons means Stallion & Horse. - The Sutton Hoo helmet had depictions of men riding horses (prehaps Odin). - Images of Horses were raised to almost religious veneration. Hengist and Horsa have been described as possible horse gods. - The Celts and Anglo-Saxons are credited with the creation of various White Horses over ancient Britain, Uffington is a good example. Tolkien would have been very aware of the Uffington horse since it is not far from Oxford. Here is a link with more detail; http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/horse.html I find that films do a brilliant job in depicting the Anglo-Saxons, personally i have a passion for the Anglo-Saxons history and culture. I am from England so that might be a reason for it, very strong ancestral ties lie here for me. If i had to make a movie about the Anglo-Saxons, it would be almost identical to the people of Rohan. Another interesting fact is that the Golden Hall Meduseld is connected with the AS word Maeduselde which means Mead Hall, the poem Beowulf describes a mead hall of which "the light of it shines far across the land". Regards Aldgorn

Author:	vikingmaiden [ January 30th, 2006, 7:21 pm ]
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^ Ah yes, the Golden Hall did remind me a lot of the hall at Heorot in Beowulf. That's an interesting website. Another interesting parallel is when Boromir's body is set in a boat with his sword and the weapons of the orcs he's conquered. That is also another heathen custom found in Beowulf--placing the dead body in a boat and letting it drift away...rather like giving up the body to Fate? I think the usage of funeral boats is fascinating. A lot of cultures use the boat as a sort of way to get into the afterlife. A boat could symbolise that journey into another world...consider Frodo leaves on a ship to Valinor.

Author:	Aldgorn [ January 31st, 2006, 10:42 am ]
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I always considered Boromirs funeral boat to be sending him back to his homeland down the great river. Since the fellowship did not have any means to bury him in a suitiable fashion at Amon Hen. But yes, commiting him to fate, sending him to nature. I see the funeral boat used by the heathens alot like Frodo going to the Undying Lands, but it was also of cultural importance since alot of them were seafarers. Certainly both can be compared. I was watching the Appendixes on ROTK SE. Minas Tirith was based on a few real world locations but basically a blend of medieval/roman/greek architecture and culture. Here are some pictures; Charlemagne's Chapel Note: The black and white archways are just like the ones at the Kings Hall in Minas Tirith. Mont St Micheal, France Regards Aldgorn

Author:	vikingmaiden [ January 31st, 2006, 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:
You know, just last night, I was thinking Minas Tirith had a decidedly Romanesque air to it (especially the King's hall).

Author:	Maya [ February 22nd, 2006, 11:24 am ]
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ooh! sorry, I just have to say that I went to Mont St. Michel! i just realized that it IS similar to Gondor! OMG! sry...

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Author:	Maneth Eruvadhril [ February 22nd, 2006, 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:
Aldgorn wrote: I always considered Boromirs funeral boat to be sending him back to his homeland down the great river. Since the fellowship did not have any means to bury him in a suitiable fashion at Amon Hen. But yes, commiting him to fate, sending him to nature. I see the funeral boat used by the heathens alot like Frodo going to the Undying Lands, but it was also of cultural importance since alot of them were seafarers. Certainly both can be compared. I was watching the Appendixes on ROTK SE. Minas Tirith was based on a few real world locations but basically a blend of medieval/roman/greek architecture and culture. Here are some pictures; Charlemagne's Chapel Note: The black and white archways are just like the ones at the Kings Hall in Minas Tirith. Mont St Micheal, France Regards Aldgorn wow, those are beautiful! and very similar to Gondor and Minas Tirith..I've noticed that Minas Tirith seems to be greek/roman based somehow...only cuz Isaw the movie Troy and the citadel was very much alike..the style is very similar Quote: Rohan - Can be compared to the Anglo-Saxons, the language is very similar (Westu Hal > Waes Hal), dress, customs, architecture. The film adaptation of Rohan especially just shouted out Anglo-Saxon to me. same here, the language is very similar to Old English Quote: Hobbits - Can be compared to the rural English folk. Living in Oxfordshire, England myself i can see where Tolkien may have got his inspiration since he studied just up the road. Where i live is very much like the shire. The film adaptation of the shire was excellent and i almost felt that was Rural England not so long ago. Pipe smoking, real ale etc.. the whole place, the Shire and the music, gave me the idea that it was Irish based..the music gave it away, lol Quote: Elves - Cannot comment on the Elves, likely not related to any historical culture apart from the fact that Elves are a big part of the Norse cosmos and Norse Mythology. Called Alf in Norse Myth they reside in Alfheim where the god Frey is ruler of that domain. Any ideas? the language of Elvish (mostly Sindarin) is VERY similar to the Gaelic dialect..that might give u an idea Quote: Gondor - I hit a bit of a problem with Gondor. You might associate them with the Greeks or Romans but i find it does not quite fit. I really do like the interpretation of Gondor and Minas Tirith in the films, but that does not help much when it comes to similarities The Architecture used is a mix of Roman and Greek but the culture reminds me of a medieval era. The armour and dress does look slightly Roman or Spartan (Tower Guards) but for example Aragorn never looks or feels at all Roman or Greek, more just a Medieval/Saxon warrior/king. you're right, tho I still see some greek/roman inspiration there, as far as architecture goes and tha armours are deffinitely medieval .