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 Post subject: Re: what exactly is goldberry?
PostPosted: June 4th, 2019, 10:34 pm 
Istari
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Well, as far as that goes quite a few heritages do fade starting with the Fourth Age, being the beginning of human domination. The Ents are doomed to extinction without the Entwives. The High Elves practically all leave Middle-earth, and the lesser Elves (Thranduil's realm) fade in some way before the domination of humans. Same for the Dwarves, who had also been dwindling for a long time (and what about the Hobbits?). And much of the damage Sauron had already done would take a long time to heal, if at all. And now, we humans have taken over that part, damaging our world, and as has been mentioned by many authors writing about Tolkien, there seem to be an awful lot of Sarumans around.

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 Post subject: Re: what exactly is goldberry?
PostPosted: June 5th, 2019, 8:12 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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Havens wrote:
During the fellowship's journey one encounters all manner of beings that they hope to protect from Sauron. Goldberry's mysterious character seems to enrich not only the scope of who would be affected by Sauron but also suggests the various heritages that could come to nothing if Sauron prevails.


It is very much akin to who all would have been affected should Hitler had been successful in his efforts. Goldberry was always an enigma, as was Tom, in this tale. How they would have been affected by a Mordor victory in the War, and Sauron taking possession of the ring.

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 Post subject: Re: what exactly is goldberry?
PostPosted: June 6th, 2019, 1:05 am 
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Tom and Goldberry are a mysterious oasis after the Hobbits' encounter with the Black Riders, and a saving force with Old Man Willow and the Barrow-Downs. The oasis seems comparable to something like a fort with Goldberry telling the Hobbits they can sleep there without worry of harm, and Tom acting as a one man army.

The mystery of Tom's and Goldberry's heritage and powers adds an undefining element to Middle Earth, bespeaking undiscernable future possibility in the face of loss of heritages.


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 Post subject: Re: what exactly is goldberry?
PostPosted: June 7th, 2019, 12:15 pm 
Istari
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Um, I just finished rereading Tom Shippey’s two books, “Autor of the Century” (2000) and the third (2003) edition of “The Road to Middle-earth”. The name Tom Bombadil originates with a toy that Michael, Christopher Tolkien’s older brother (the oldest was John) lost on some vacation. The poem “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil”, being the title poem of a collection of poems JRRT published in 1962 but stemming from 1934, before the publication of “The Hobbit, mentions nothing about Middle-earth or Hobbits, and that the Withywindle river (stream?) and Old Man Willow ended up in “Fellowship” had more to do with their relationship with TB than the other way around.

The main point is that JRRT had been asked by his publishers of “The Hobbit” to write a sequel to it. At this point, he was still trying to do that, more or less, and was groping his way almost blindly through what was to become the story. He inserted TB (and other stuff) for the four Hobbits to have an “adventure”. In Peter Jackson’s “Fellowship” film, they go straight from crossing the Brandywine by the Bucklebury ferry to Bree and the Prancing Pony. Missing: Crickhollow, the Old Forest, Old Man Willow, Tom, Goldberry, the Barrow Downs. One of the few occasions where I agree with PJ’s editorial cutting – in the film.

So, an extreme view on Tom and Goldberry is that they feel so much like anachronisms in “Fellowship” the book because they don’t really necessarily belong there. Which is why the discussions about Tom are probably the ones most rife with (occasionally wild) speculations that no other writings of JRRT’s can help decide.

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Last edited by Gandolorin on June 12th, 2019, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: what exactly is goldberry?
PostPosted: June 9th, 2019, 7:20 pm 
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I am learning much concerning The Hobbit and LOTR! From what I know, JRRT wrote these stories for his grandkids. This invited a more personal touch from him as an author, such as a memory of his brother's toy (granduncle of his grandkids).

Before further study, my initial guesswork is that the isolated, youthful intensity of Goldberry and Tom served the need of hobbits growing up as fast and far as Frodo's group. With JRRT having lost each of his parents during childhood, he must have had a strong sense of struggle and need concerning harsh growth demanded of those not ready for it. Perhaps he cast the '"deeper and nearer to mortal heart" "spell" of Goldberry (as compared to the affect more "lofty" and "keen" of the elves) upon Frodo (also an orphan) toward this end.


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 Post subject: Re: what exactly is goldberry?
PostPosted: June 12th, 2019, 3:37 pm 
Istari
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Havens wrote:
... From what I know, JRRT wrote these stories for his grandkids. This invited a more personal touch from him as an author, such as a memory of his brother's toy (granduncle of his grandkids)...

Ah, no. "The Hobbit" was a story he invented for his children (and told them as a good-night story in serial, so to speak), not grandchildren. When he actually started writing it down is unclear. And the Michael Tolkien I mentioned above, who had the toy named Tom Bombadil that got lost, is JRRT's second son (and child), older but not oldest brother of Christopher Tolkien, who should be known by anyone here. And LoTR had to do with Stanley Unwin, JRRT's publisher of "The Hobbit", wishing for a sequel. No part of LoTR was ever read in any form to any of JRRT's children. In late 1937, after "The Hobbit" had been published, oldest son John was 20, Michael 17, Christopher 13, and Priscilla 8. So the only likely audience for a children's story sequel to "The Hobbit" would probably have been Priscilla. The People JRRT actually read LoTR in serial as he was writing were The Inklings of Oxford - an entirely different chapter of his life.

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Last edited by Gandolorin on June 28th, 2019, 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: what exactly is goldberry?
PostPosted: June 26th, 2019, 9:44 pm 
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Ah. My memory was off about it being for his children.


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