To begin with the post provided by Tar-Vanimelde (and abstaining, for the moment, from employing quotes), the "want for power" is certainly a topic I find of great interest- my own personal thoughts on the inherent "goodness" or "badness" of it notwithstanding at this point.

Though I asked this specifically for VikingMaiden's opinion on the matter, my curiosity does extend beyond that. I have no contention that the want for power has been shown capable of wreaking great destruction and pain upon the world. I remain uncertain, however, if this is an inevitable outcome- as well as if it is the "want" itself that can be blamed entirely on the matter. For, as I mentioned earlier in regards for pride, I still entertain the notion that it is the people capable of wreaking such havoc, yet we only notice those who find themselves in a position of power to be caught in history's unforgiving eye- those who, in almost all cases, also happen to have a partiality for this "power". Could it be that the want for power has acquired its infamous reputation... entirely through association?


As for VikingMaiden's say on the matter, I also am greatly intrigued by this view. Specifically when you state "It can easily become a very, very dangerous thing." I do not know if it was intentional or if I missed the implication in it, but I find the word-switch from "bad" to "dangerous" to be a matter of reflection- you also employ this change in terms when discussing pride. What precisely might the connection be, if one does exist?

But yes, you also speak of the likelihood of the want for power creating systems of oppression and slavery. What of Boromir's plans then? Excluding the utterly corrupting nature of the Ring (which we all know would have resulted in just such an outcome), do you have any thoughts on how Boromir's want for power might have affected his Stewardship and Gondor, had the Ring not become involved? I myself entertain the notion it might have even been beneficial, though naturally it is entirely speculation. An interesting matter to speculate though, if either of you (VikingMaiden or Tar-Vanimelde... or anyone of course) are of the mind.

I also notice in your post you distinguish between two forms of pride, which is in the spirit of our earlier discussion of the ambiguity of the term. However, there might exist some logic behind the use of only one word for that range of possibilites- in the end, where is the distinction between Aragorn's pride and Boromir's pride? Is it the same trait which drives Theoden to take his men for one last charge against the innumerable hosts of Mordor as that which drives Denethor to burn himself alive rather than "bend" to the will of Gandalf? Pride is... a challenge to understand, for myself at any rate. But this is merely meandering thought on my own part, for I do understand and largely can agree with your own comments on the two matters as well.

Boromir as a foil character- here I must admit I used the term "foil character" rather liberally, not taking it to its traditional form of one character providing a contrast for another specifically, but rather as Boromir himself personifying, to some extent, a foil to some of the omnipresent themes we find throughout the books, especially the first however. In almost any instance where a voice of questioning, doubt, or even challenge is raised, one quickly finds it to be from Boromir. In almost any turn of the Fellowship he debates, or at least questions with respect, the wisdom of the path they take (this is far more present in the books than the movies), and it is he who voices the main "good" (as opposed to evil) argument for not destroying the Ring. Essentially, without Boromir, a lot of these questions we now discuss might never have occurred to us, at least within the bounds of Tolkien's works. The best parallel to this I might provide is if either of you have ever read Arthur Miller's play "The Crucible", in which the character of Reverend Hale, at the very end, refuses to accept the choice which the protagonist has made, arguing against the theme presented in that. I liked the entire play, but that last act was remarkably thought-provoking for me due especially to the arguments between those two views presented.

And, lastly, just to comment on the matter of debates- it all depends on your discussion partner(s) I would suppose. If you can find people of similar interest and mind, a debate or a discussion will often yield the most fascinating of insights. This would provide a nice example I would think and hope.

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Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

Ok, I've been thinking about this topic for a long time, I hope it's not been too long. Although I think the discussion has been great, I sort of want to throw in a bit of a different perspective. Not an entirely new one, but different.

I've been reading a book called Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secrets of a Man's Soul by John Eldredge. It's a book about masculinity and the psychology of what makes a man a man. It's by a Christian author, but I'm sure people who aren't Christians could find it interesting,since it's not your typical 'christian' book. I've been finding it interesting, even though I'm a woman...anyways...

Could we say that Boromir's desire to use the Ring comes from his masculine soul? As a man he wants to be recognized for doing something great, he wants the affirmation of comrades. He wants to conquer and win. Instead of merely saying, "Boromir was just a prideful, arrogant soul with a whole lot of weaknesses." and beating up on him, shouldn't the perspective be more understanding of him?

Right now, I'm trying to see where pride comes into all of this. Is pride considered more of a masculine trait? Is it because I am a woman that I see more fault in Boromir's motives for using the Ring? At the moment, I am not sure. I do not want to unfairly condemn Boromir as I've said before. Some input would be interesting...

Brave in my opinion.

Maybe, as vikingmaiden just said, it's the fact I'm also male and I understand Boromir's desire to be remembered for something. (it's true, I've never met another male who didn't want to do something)

I see where Boromir's coming from. He's not Gandalf, with Maiar knowledge, or Aragorn, without benefit of another plausible option, but just a man who's lived on the Borders of the Black Land all his life. He had felt the terror of the Nine, probably beheld the Morgul Vale from afar, knew the fastness of the Black Gates. To his mind, it was impossible to get in. He was also a warrior, a general, a military man. His solution was to beat the enemy in strength of war, and the only way to do that was through the Ring.

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Son of FrostLord and Natalie Portman Brother of FaZiovsky

Clueless member of the Welcoming Team

I found him a combonation of brave and cowardly, power hungry and noble. I had a lot of diffrent feelings for him. Though I did enjoy his death, very dramatic. (Not saying I was happy to see him die.)

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"Spam. The Forums are filled with it.
Let us destroy the spam. Release the MODs!"

He's both. He's very brave when it cames to fight and share his opinions, but he's very very weak concerning the ring and to family issues.

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I'M BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've just wanted to comment on a wonderful debate between Vikingmaiden and Isildur's Bane.
Honestly i never saw such a good usage of the literal knowledge of Tolkien's works and all other books for that matter on any forum as was the case here. Im highly impressed by you two, keep it up!

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I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the Warrior for his glory. I love the homeland which they defend.

Ditto to all of that! It was wonderful to see both of your wonderful views on the matter. I agreed with some things and disagreed with others- I just didn't post because you two were covering everything! Definately keep it up!!

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"Hogwarts will always be there to welcome you home."

Thank you. I actually was interested in knowing what others thought of the idea that Boromir was acting out of a masculine need for recognition and great deeds...but I haven't seen Isildur's Bane about...

Boromir was extremely brave and loyal for his country, and fought well wuth the fellowship of the ring when it was necessary.
But he was weaker than the ring's power more than the others, and obeyed only for Gondor's "opinion". But I still think he is more brave than weak.

A bit of both really. He was a strong, brave man, but still, he was a man, and their hearts are easily corrupted. It isn't suprising that he did what he did, because of how weak men can be. It wasn't his fault, the ring was corrupting him. I think that he was much more brave than he was weak.

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^all banners by me - CJ's Request Thread

My apologies for my extended hiatus, but concerns of the outside world will occasionally take precedence regardless of my own priorities.

I agree in part with your statement that we judge Boromir on a different standard than what he would have held himself, and, in fact, I believe the post by Shigure best illustrated Boromir's mindset on the entire situation. However, attributing this to masculinity raises some questions on my part. For one thing, masculinity includes... quite a number of people. Attributing Boromir's actions to masculinity should also bring into question the motives of every one of the predominately male cast of Tolkien's works. The remainder of the Fellowship would, in effect, be rendered either as very strong against these masculine tendencies or remarkably effeminate.

Boromir's predisposition has always seemed to me to be more in line with socio-hierarchal influences, along with inherent personality. Hence, one can see the difference between himself and Aragorn, himself and Faramir, and even himself and his father (though their connection I have always held as the strongest). Still, the role of masculinity is certainly an interesting factor to consider- I simply lack the technical knowledge in the field to observe it more closely.

Pride I would be surprised to find as a particularly masculine or feminine trait. However, there is good reason to believe (I would think) that the manifestation of this pride would be affected largely by factors connected to gender. That is another matter to consider, should it interest any.

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Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

Wow, this is the only thread I can visit just to make myself feel smarter, just being able to watch this debate going on...

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Be with me always - take any form - drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you!

Haha that was good Tar. I will reply when I read all those things written.

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You should Astaldo, this is right up your alley.

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Be with me always - take any form - drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you!

Who here says that boromir is a coward or weak? He is a great warrior, he has defended his lands with bravery and has spilled the blood of many an orc, way more than any of his critics have i bet. Again, you try and resist the will of the ring. He could not, no one can except for Aragorn. He is a great warrior and i shall challenge any who oppose this

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In the world of the blind the one eyed man is king

I agree with Elrohir the Strong, Boromir was a great warrior. No doubt he killed many Orcs before being slain.

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O Elbereth! Gilthionel!