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The Power of the Ring Over Immortals
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17202		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Sairahiniel [ May 21st, 2008, 7:34 pm ]
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^ I think that its a mixture of what I said and what you pointed out dearest :) Tom I think is Tolkien's most abstract character and the most difficult one to comprehend
Author:  Frodo_Lives [ May 22nd, 2008, 12:30 pm ]
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What if Tom is Manwe himself? Could it be? ... I do think it could be, but everytime I make this statement to myself a lot of questions rise in me,like: Why did Tom nothing against Sauron if he IS Manwe? Why did he just see what Frodo did? ....
Author:  Aerandir [ June 11th, 2008, 6:08 am ]
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No, Tom can't be Manwë, because Manwë is more powerful than Sauron, but Elrond and Gandalf said that Tom wouldn't be able to hold out forever.
Author:  Aerandir [ June 11th, 2008, 11:28 am ]
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Tinúviel wrote:
^ Randir!! :D You ish back! :hug:

Btw, in case you hadn't guessed so already ( I guess all the Ville Valo avatars COULD have given me away :teehee:) , tis Aerlinn on a temporarily name change. :yes: Anyway...

...I think Aule is the only slightly more realistic Vala..for various reasons I mentioned in one of my posts in this thread.

But I'm not at all that sure about Tom being a Vala - or even a Maia- at all.
i read about Tom being inspired by a toy Tolkien's children had, and that he wanted to incorporate their toy in the story for them. That could explain a lot about Tom's mysterious origins. However, like everything in Tolkien's writings, this character of course evolved over time. I still things that what Saira and I concluded - about Tom being an "abstract" being is the most reasonable idea.


Lol, yeah, I guessed that it was you from the Ville Valo avatars. :P

I honestly think that Tom does count as one of the Ainur, just because he is so powerful, he was there for the making of Eä, and he could hold out against Sauron. For him to be like that, he would have to be one of the Maia or of the Valar. We know that he's not one of the Valar, since he's so absent minded and he's been in his little area for years, so he must be a powerful Maia. I would think at least as powerful as Gandalf and Saruman, so...he's got to be of the Ainur.
Author:  Ashwise [ June 30th, 2008, 9:28 pm ]
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I think it depends on the immortal wheither the ring's going to have power over them or not.
Author:  maxx [ March 27th, 2009, 12:57 pm ]
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Hmm, I remember a theory/discussion that Tom was the illuvatar.
Author:  Lasbelingur [ March 27th, 2009, 6:10 pm ]
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I think that immortals are drawn towards the ring just not as much as mortals, I think they have more strength and therefore they can resist the urge if they want to.
Author:  maxx [ March 28th, 2009, 4:11 am ]
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Hmm, with a little more thoughts on it.
We begin seperating immortals.

Elves.-
Maia -
Valar -

Tom. -

The first three we can do more easily, because well, they're not a mystery.

The elves - They have lived for much longer then men, they do not have the shadow in their hearts. This would make them resistant longer to it, but not immune. Especially since Galadriel said she, one of the most/more powerfull and ancient elves was afraid it would take her.

The Maia - They're more powerfull then men, they're a part of the ainur, yet I remember reading somewhere that Sauron was more powerfull then them. And Gandalf feared it. But they were send to help out the peoples of Middle Earth. So, yes, they would hold out longer, but not be immune, in their desire to help.

The Valar - They, as long as they outrank Sauron, which most if not all of them do, in power and might, would be immune to it.

Tom - As shown in the books, he is immune to the ring, and as later said that 'he will most likely forget about it or throw it away. For he does not care for such power.'
Author:  Aerandir [ March 29th, 2009, 9:51 pm ]
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Maxx, I disagree with you. I think that anyone is vulnerable to the Ring if they desire power and aren't content with what they have. Tom Bombadil was completely content with what he had, and because he desired nothing else the Ring had no strength over him. I think even a Vala could fall to it, though, given time.
Author:  Sairahiniel [ April 1st, 2009, 6:20 pm ]
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I know that Im technically retired, but I pop in occasionally ;) And this is simply one my favourite topics - Lord of the Rings philosophizing!

This whole business with the power of the Ring over Immortals, I feel, personally, is much more subtle than many people realize. Probably me included. Tolkien put so much thought and depth in those books... Im planning on writing a major essay (3000-6000 words) on the socio-political implications there, because its just BRILLIANT. The Ring is obviously the pivotal symbol in the books, but it also represents much more than just ultimate power. Funnily enough in Children of Huron that's all they do - slaughter each other for power and revenge. I do believe that the elves evolved though, to a point where they realized that true satisfaction came from within themselves. Not all elves, of course, but most did reach this point. That's why they have that magical quality about them that we all kind of want :P Because they are so at peace with themselves. Once someone realizes this, then even this awesome power has no effect. Galadriel is the perfect example of this, and Im talking about her character in the book. I adore the movies, but I just feel that it does not even come close to the amazingness of the books.

The Maia and the Valar are so seldom seen once the books really pick up... There is that shadowy pre-Bilbo region of the history of Middle Earth of course, but Gandalf even mentions in the books that Sauron was not, is not, and never will be the supreme power behind the Ring. He created it, yes, but he only the underling of a greater Master. I think that this Master is the opposite of Tom. Tom... He's got to be my favourite character. He's just the master of himself, and that's exactly why he can with stand the power so wholly. He has complete control over himself - over his emotions, desires and actions. He's gotten to a point where he can literally do anything because he knows that he can. But in a humble way, and it is this humility which makes him so great.

I apologize for the dissertation and if this makes no sense :) I've thought a long, long time about all these weird subtleties and I want to know what you all think of them!
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