I desperately need some constructive criticism and opinions on this layout or an rp I'm making. I'm not sure I like it and I think it'll be hard to nagivate around. Please let me know what you think!
http://www.freewebs.com/xfallen-angels/indexx.htm
BTW it's not finished yet

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I like the look of it but where is the navagation?

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Constructive criticism.. here goes..

I am viewing your site with 1028 x 768 resolution Internet Explorer. Your layout is quite odd, it has three (and a half?) columns. Why is this? This makes things looks complicated, and I don't know where to start. Secondly, I'm not liking how I have to scroll to see the navigation.

Now, your coding. You have a space before the html tag. Rid of this space, now you have another empty line that's above your html tag. Use this line to put in your doc type- as you do not have one. Remember this goes before all your html coding. Blank spaces like these can be read as data on browsers.

For your style css, you have defined it twice, when there is no need to. Secondly, remove your CSS that defines scrollbars colors. This is a trend thats very annoying and unnecessary. Even more of a reason to remove it is because this only and only works in IE. Besides, it's annoying when people decide to change their scrollbar colors, I like it the normal way thank-you. AND, defining scrollbar colours makes your CSS unable to validate. Have I convinced you yet?

Now, I see you've defined margins, a background color, and a background image. This is far too wordy, you can achieve this by using CSS:


Also, you not closed this document properly. You have a closed html tag, but no closed body tag. Add this, but remember it comes before the closed html tag.

le sigh

I see you've used a combination of tables and div layers to make your layout, this=bad idea. Tables, according to the <a href="http://www.w3.org">World Wide Web Consoritum</a> is used only for organizing data. You might want to learn how to make tableless layouts with divs and external stylesheets, better known as "CSS Layouts." Make-your-life-easier. I could see by this layout, you're having difficulty, no need to put so much pressure on yourself.

I'd process your stylesheet and your source, but the source doesn't have a doc type, therefore it won't valid (aka it's not valid), and your stylesheet is internal, therefore CSS cannot be validated either, and this also prevents validation for your source.

Inescapably, you have some work on your hands. Go <a href="http://www.tutorialtastic.co.uk">here</a>, click CSS/Styling, and read the tutorial on how to create tableless layouts. Good luck.

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A Wedding? I love Weddings! Drinks all around!

I think you have a good start there, and I'd be interested to see how you use the space you've laid out.

About the coding (since that's what I'm more qualified in, and because I have some comments about AleeraVladimir's comments:

You've got multiple body tags, which is a problem. You should combine them into one.
You should put a doctype in before the html tag. You probably want this one:
(use > and < instead of ] and [)

Don't worry about the scrollbar colors, as I think it's a nice effect, but be warned that they'll only show up in Internet Explorer and that they're not technically valid.

Contrary to what AleeraVladimir said, you DO have a closing body tag.

Tables might not be intended for forming layouts, but they are a quick an easy way to make a layout, and it's a perfectly valid use for them. I find that in some cases divs and css (no tables) is easier, and in other cases tables are easier. Just use whatever's more comfortable for you.

Finally, if you're interested, here's the validator information that AleeraVladimir didn't want to give you: (these pages will change as you change your page)
HTML Validator output
CSS Validator output
(You don't worry about these unless you want to. (I tend to) Just make sure your page looks ok in a couple different browsers. (Currently it looks the same in IE and Firefox, which is good.

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<img src="http://thulcandra.com/randombanner/banner.php" title="Banner by Arwen">
I can help with HTML/CSS/JavaScript/PHP/ASP. I can't do graphics or layouts.
Post in Site Help, I'll see it. Or PM me.

Jeez, sorry for trying to help OH-MIGHTY-WISE-ONE..pfft..



I don't recommend this doc type. HTML is, dare I say, like a dying language. More blog scripts, and other advances to a website will require XHTML, and besides you'll eventually use in time anyway, just get it over with before you have remove thousands and thousands of pages worth of deprecates. XHTML also cleans up your coding, I'll be even more impressed if you decide to use XHTML Strict! Read up on that here: http://www.tutorialtastic.co.uk/page/va ... ansitional



Oh sure, use something that will not only invalidate her CSS, but will slow loading time, disable cross compatibilty, cause the misread of data... nice advice.



Did I ever say I didn't want to give it to her? Did I seriously say "Use doc types, find them yourself, I WON'T GIVE THEM TO YOU. No, I did not. I rest my case. I assumed she knew about doc types but didn't want to use them, sheesh my mistake.



She SHOULD worry about these if she cares about her site and considers herself a web-designer. BTW, her website should look the same in ALL browsers, not just a couple.


*Looks again* Aha! You are right. This wasn't entirely my fault though, you should have basic tags listed, she hadthis:




Wrong. They are not quick and easy. And I'll prove it to you: http://www.tutorialtastic.co.uk/page/cr ... ess_layout

Just look a the difference between a tabled layout and a div layout. Tables are used for numbers, statistics, math, etc.

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A Wedding? I love Weddings! Drinks all around!

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that I was more qualified than you. I just meant that since I'm not at all artistic, I'm more qualified to talk about code than I am to talk about design.

My point is just that for most people, writing a web site is a fairly daunting task while you're getting started. I don't think adding all the little details about standards is the right thing to do until one is comfortable with basic coding. The vast majority of people (yourself included) use Internet Explorer, which doesn't follow the standards anyway.


It'll throw an error that noone will ever see, slow the loading time down by a few milliseconds, and it looks pretty in IE. It's her call.

That was with reference to this:

You didn't want to give her a link without a doctype. The validator shows you errors in your code regardless of whether you include a doctype, so I gave her a link. meh.

Of course it should. But some browsers are buggy, some don't follow standards, and she's not going to test her page on every OS with every browser and every screen size ever made. Standards help, but they can't guarantee an identical experience. If it looks ok in IE and firefox, it'll look ok in most major browsers (Opera, Safari, ...) and 90+% of her visitors won't have a problem.

Tabled layout: http://jerg.ee.psu.edu
Div layout: http://thulcandra.com
Both are relatively easy. Both work. Table is a very intuitive layout, and a lot of books and tutorials start you with it. If people are more comfortable with it, there's no reason they can't stick with it.


NOTE: Apologies to Falathiel Lothendhel for taking over her thread. AleeraVladimir, if you want to respond to this, go ahead, I'll read it, but I'm not going to respond in this thread. (I may PM)

Maybe I'm being annoying or confrontational. If so I apologize. Blame it on my new meds...

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<img src="http://thulcandra.com/randombanner/banner.php" title="Banner by Arwen">
I can help with HTML/CSS/JavaScript/PHP/ASP. I can't do graphics or layouts.
Post in Site Help, I'll see it. Or PM me.

What I meant was you saying you were more qualified then me in coding, which suggests that I know little or less than you do.. which isn't true at all. I'm sure you didn't mean to sound so "stuck-up," I'm just horribly sarcastic sometimes, pardon me.



Uh, I use Mozilla Firefox 24.7, the only reason I use (or have) IE, is that I'm part of several WPR sites and require IE to check off cross browser compatibilty. I completely agree with what you are saying, but throwing nickpicks at them will help them learn as this took me years to discover on my own. Adding little details will help them in the near future. Basic coding does take time for people now starting, but if we're going to help and teach them, we might as well give them all the right information and not hold anything back. Sure people have to start somewhere, but you don't teach them how to do it "technically incorrectly" and then wait a year or two before 1) they discover the truth for themselves 2) or someone else educates them



But it'll still throw an error wouldn't it? The fact of the matter is (even though it;s by milliseconds), it is slowing loading time. Sure it's her call, I'm just pointing this out because one too many times do I have people ask me to review their websites and when I nick pick at stuff like this, they say: I want to code my site MY WAY, have this this way because I say so! Then why, pray tell, do such people ask for a review in the first place? It's much like the same thing.



True, it will validate it according to the standards of HTML 4.1(I think) Transitional, but most often it will not validate because the person has not defined an encoding such as UTF-8, and therefore it will not be able to validate.



If they are informed this actually incorrect according to http://www.w3.org and still want to use it, that is their choice. I won't ransack them for not being correct to World Wide Web Consortium standards.

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A Wedding? I love Weddings! Drinks all around!

Oh there's no need to apologize. I'm glad I'm getting two different opinions. Thanks to you both! I think I'm going to scrap most of this layout and follow your suggestions. They've really helped! And thank you for all the links. I've already have used most of them and am seeing my coding mistakes! Thank you so much. I really appreciate it!

Love Falath

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Again, regardless of the (very reasonable) Falathiel's response, I must ask you two to be kinder and less argumentative. Thank you.

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I am a Shieldmaiden for Christ!

I was Nienor before Nienor was cool. *nods coolly*
Kudos to Kitoky for the fabulous signature set, and art credit to engelszorn.
Who wants to join me in bringing back the lady?

Your welcome! Any other help let me [or Pilgrim] know! Apparently I was being a [just a little] snazzy, and I apologize. Any questions at all... I'm here to help

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A Wedding? I love Weddings! Drinks all around!