^Perhaps I'm deluded, but I always thought that the "show" and the "characters" were one and the same. I understand and appreciate that casts can and will change, but there comes a point when it (at least in my opinion) stops being a cast change and becomes something that changes the show in a huge way. Owen and Tosh died, and it changed the TW dynamic, but the team could still function. I feel like adding Ianto to the body count and reducing the main cast to Jack and Gwen changes the show too much for it to still feel like the Torchwood I've become loyal to.


Tar:
I won't deny that I'm glad we're done with Gray. He never felt right to me. But I agree that the build up promised more than we got.

Though didn't Jack/Gwen end when she realized that she couldn't keep screwing Rhys over for the other male members of the TW team? That was the impression I got.

I wish that Ianto had lived to see Jack leave Earth. I don't know is you listen to the radio plays, but there were some interesting lines...

I would have really loved to see what happened to Ianto if this actually happened.

Jones-Cat:
The special after last night's episode was hilarious. They must have said "working for Torchwood is dangerous" fifteen times. It was all anyone said about Ianto's death.

Like I said above, the Jack and Gwen show won't feel like Torchwood to me. Without the comic stylings of Ianto or even the Hub at least, I'm pretty sad.

Also, the idea of watching Gwen try to balance Torchwood with her baby is nauseating me already.

And you bring up a great point about Jack having no reason to return.

Nauriel:
I'm so glad it was like 4 AM so no one heard me. It was horrible.

I believe I read somewhere that they killed him off to hurt the audience, and so that Jack would feel that he had nothing left to lose, and would torture his grandson to death. Which, I might add, is a horrible reason to kill off a main character.

If there was one thing I loved about CoE, it was how mature it was. The dark, disturbing tone is really appropriate (and how I'd like to see DW as well, but that won't happen) for the subject matter. But yeah, several parts, especially the multiple murders of children were seriously twisted. It was like Gwen said about The Doctor, as much as he likes to believe that we are all that's good and amazing in the Universe, occasionally we're rotten to the core. I liked seeing that.


Random other things that I want to say:

Did anyone else watch it again this week on BBC America?

Speaking of Jack/Gwen, if he returns in the fourth season and they get into a relationship, I don't know what I'll do. Besides fly to the UK, find RTD and rip him limb from limb. WITH MY TEETH.

The fact that Ianto's death was simply to destroy Jack, (and was caused by a really stupid plot piece on the writer's part) has cheapened his death enough to begin with that I have no problems bringing him back. Because I love Ianto more than my own family. They used the Rift to bring Rhys back to life once before, didn't they? I'm sure it could be used for Ianto as well. My only real problem with bringing him back to life is that Gareth was simply incredible in that scene. His "I love you" destroyed me.

Speaking of lines that killed me, Gwen's "There's nothing we can do." GAH. BAAAH.

I've been listening to the soundtrack on youtube, and I really think that this is some of the best music they've ever used on the show. "The Ballad of Ianto Jones" (Oh God the end...) is incredible.

Ok. I'm crying again.

But now Ianto has his own song! And its a ballad! Personally, I think that song gives 'Owen's Theme' and even 'Owen Fights Death' a run for its money. I just love how at times you can hear vocals, like during Gray's Theme or The Doctor' Theme, but there's still the music. Could it be because I'm Ianto biased? Perhaps. Do I can? Heck frakin' no.

Yep yep yep timx4. The characters made the show take them away, and you no longer have the original show. I'm sorry RTD, but unless you bring Ianto back, Torchwood can't come back.

And like timx4, I have no problems with Ianto coming back. His death, while devastatingly sad, was already cheapened by the fact that he died just to make Jack cry. Well, he served his purpose. Its time to get those sci-fi brains working and find a way to bring our Welshman back to the land of the living.

And I have to say, the part of his death scene that really got to me was when he was falling, and Jack caught him and was practically crying "No, not him. Anybody but him." During all of Torchwood, Jack is quite the player. Yeah, he's involved with Ianto, but hey, lets go out and flirt and kiss some guys. Why not? To see Jack so absolutely devastated, to see him put Ianto above everyone else, was so sad.

Also too was when Ianto asked Jack to remember him. That's a fair request to make to a mortal, but to Jack? In ten years, no doubt Jack will be able to remember Ianto, but 100? 1000? 1,000,000? When we see the Face of Bo, does he remember Ianto? It was heartbreaking to see Ianto realize that Jack will probably forget him, that he will slowly slip away from his lover. I think that was the saddest part. [/url]

EDIT: I'm listening to some of the soundtrack. Holy cow pie and a half, that's epic. Even better than season two. Wow.

Completely agree with everything said by Tim.


Though about the whole Jack/Gwen relationship, I have to admit that I never saw the point where the tension left, until just one episode it was completely gone. I don't know though, it's been a while since I've watched 2nd season.


But yes, I also felt like Ianto's death was cheap in the first place. Even before I knew it was just a trigger to make Jack cry. No, it was completely cheap, even plotwise. I mean, "hey, let's run in and wave our completely useless guns around, with absolutely, no plan and no way of stopping you, and declare war. How does that sound to you?" "Well, we're just gonna...fill this room with gas, even though it was never previously mentioned that we have any contact outside this freaking impenetrable glass box we're in, because we just decided that we have control of the venting system."


I'm sure SOMEONE can call out major flaws in my point, but I'm pretty sure it still stands. So I see no reason to pull out a cheap RTD trick like he's been known to do (see Dr Who series 4 finale) and break all the rules and bring him back. Even if it means an alternate!universe Ianto. I don't care. I'm not gonna lie, I was convinced until the "6 months later" that as soon as the 456 were destroyed all those deaths would be reversed.



Anyway. In other points, I would also like to say I loved how delightfully morbid CoE was. I mean, it was nice to see some realism for once. You know, it was always "the children never get hurt, sure, people die, but everything turns out perfectly okay in the end blah blah blah." I must say that one of the greatest touches, in my opinion, was the murder/suicide of the Prime Minister's assistant guy, whose name or position escapes me at the moment. I mean, it was so...dark. But I couldn't blame the guy at all. And it was realistic. Also, the whole "drug trade" was another nice point to the plot that made me applaud.


Anyway, overall, I liked CoE. I would have LOVED CoE if it weren't for the Ianto!demise. I'm listening to The Ballad of Ianto Jones right now, and I think I'm just being over analytical, but I felt like the first two minutes had a sort of ticking clock rhythm the whole time. Also, I Can Run Forever is also a favorite of mine from the Soundtrack.

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Be with me always - take any form - drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you!

Another reason why Ianto's death failed: Ianto wouldn't have gone in unprepared. He and Jack at that point both knew they were capable of releasing a virus, so wouldn't they at least take some precautions, like evacuating the building or wearing a frakking hazmat suit? Ianto's the one who brought chocolate for Pterodactyl catching...

Yes, an alternate universe Ianto would be acceptable. As long as he comes back.

I did like the darkness of CoE, I really did, but it would've been plenty dark without Ianto dying. The scene with Frobisher killing his family, yes, was so chilling and dark, I loved it in that sort of messed-up way. I thought Bridget Spears' voiceover was brilliant for that bit. And government conversations, where they started referring to the children as 'units' was just terrifying, because that was sadly realistic.

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- married fingon fingolfinion 6/4/13 -
~art credit~

Has it really been two years since Children of Earth? Jeese, it doesn't seem like its been that long at all.

So, how many of you have watched the newest episode of Torchwood?

I saw it, and I have to say it exceeded my expectations. True, my expectations were painfully low to begin with, but I definitely enjoyed the show. Its not Torchwood without Tosh, Owen, and Ianto, and it doesn't feel like a Torchwood episode, but what ever it is now is actually pretty decent. I was captured by the plot (which is terrifying and sickening when they delve into the consequences of it), the acting was good, and the pacing was spot on. It didn't feel rushed, but it also didn't dwaddle.

I'll be tuning in for the next episode. If you haven't seen this episode yet, I would recommend you at least give it a try. There's no replacement for the original, but this series actually has some legs to stand on.