Hm, I don't expect Peter Jackson to care about such details. He wants her to 'stand out' [maybe], so he gives her reddish hair?

That said, I need no Tauriel. I want no Tauriel

Also Ruscowen, don't forget Nerdanel's father...

'But [Maedhros], and the youngest, inherited the rare red-brown hair of Nerdanel's kin. Her father had the epesse [nickname] of rusco 'fox'' JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor

*gulps*
Yes... so much worse.
But in the Aragorn's death scene I think she's wearing much better stuff.

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call me Fin, Ara, Aralas, Tulisse, or Tuli.
~A mahta tenna qualme! Auta i lome, aure entuluva!~
was known as aralas_29.

Yeah and when she 1st appears on the horse in the Fellowship, I think she is fairly modest then too.

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Formerly Legolin12

Yeah, but I think she might have been wearing pants.

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call me Fin, Ara, Aralas, Tulisse, or Tuli.
~A mahta tenna qualme! Auta i lome, aure entuluva!~
was known as aralas_29.

No, it was a riding skirt.
I saw the picture in the Art of the Fellowship of the Ring.

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Formerly Legolin12

*takes deep breath*
Good!
I should've known it wasn't pants.
We have the Art of FotR right now!

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call me Fin, Ara, Aralas, Tulisse, or Tuli.
~A mahta tenna qualme! Auta i lome, aure entuluva!~
was known as aralas_29.

Actually, Tolkien wrote that Elven women can and did fight, because they were just as strong and agile as the men. And considering how much running and jumping and climbing they're doing, it would be much easier to do so in pants than a skirt.

Anyway, I really hope they don't try to pass off Tauriel as a Feanorian descendant. Considering how Celebrimbor suffered because of the Oath and the Doom of Mandos, it would be annoying if she somehow escaped that. Besides, I personally don't see Maedhros or either of the twins as good father material or even the type to want children, given their own daddy issues.

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- married fingon fingolfinion 6/4/13 -
~art credit~

Good point.
Did you know that they were going to have Arwen be a warrior princess?

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Formerly Legolin12

She was supposed to fight at Helm's Deep--apparently you can almost see her in some of the shots. I'm glad they didn't go with that, in the end, but at the same time, I'd love to see the footage, purely out of curiosity.

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- married fingon fingolfinion 6/4/13 -
~art credit~

Hmm... well, despite that Tolkien generally noted that certain differences [those that had been established by custom] might vary in place and time, his notable example of the differences between Elven men and Elven women reveals that it was Elven Men who bore arms, not Elven women.

In short, Eldarin women could fight if they needed to, when pressed into dire straights to do so, but normally they did not fight in battle. Also, Tolkien did not exactly say that Elven women were just as strong as Elven men, he said:

'Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi [Elven women] fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.' JRRT, Laws And Customs Among the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring

So 'less difference' [than among mortals] among Elven women that had not borne children.

Tauriel being a captain of the guard [if that is what she is] does not easily fit into this in my opinion, although Jackson fans can claim [if they must] that perhaps this description need not be true for the Tawarwaith of Mirkwood or Tauriel in particular.

Please tell me that they have never considered that! I don't think that Thranduil would want a Feanorian as captain of his guard. This would explain her red hair but ... NO! That's unthinkable!

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Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Túrin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?

The Silmarillion, Of Túrin Turambar

Ahh... my mistake...
I didn't exactly read every single thing that Tolkien wrote..
I think I should have researched first before I said something!
Whatever. What's done is done.

Tauriel seems okay.. but somehow something doesn't seem right.

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call me Fin, Ara, Aralas, Tulisse, or Tuli.
~A mahta tenna qualme! Auta i lome, aure entuluva!~
was known as aralas_29.

@ Ruscowen - It's just people speculating. If anything, I think her reddish hair is purely a visual thing, because it's going to look gorgeous against the forest colour scheme.



Ah, thanks, that was the quote I was looking for--bit different than I remembered, but close enough, and I think it justifies her role perfectly well. Mirkwood is the only Elven kingdom of the Third Age not protected by one of the Three, and with Sauron literally on their doorstep (unlike Lorien and Rivendell), they'd need all the help they can get. Assuming Tauriel is unmarried, I see no problems with giving her a high rank--there's no reason why a female warrior should be less qualified than a male.

Anyway, I've had discussions on tumblr about Laws and Customs, and most people think that they were set down by elves of Valinor--the Noldor and Vanyar and Teleri. Everyone else was far removed from the Valar and from the court life of the High Elves, and they wouldn't necessarily follow the same ideals because of that.

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- married fingon fingolfinion 6/4/13 -
~art credit~

I can't agree that quote justifies Tauriel well. And while Thranduil had no Ring of Power, on the other hand he did have an underground fortress that Lorien and Rivendell did not have, with great stone doors shut by magic.

Rather, by dire straights and desperate defence I think Tolkien meant 'at the very last need' -- as in [for example] a city like Gondolin is falling and lives are at stake if the nissi do not take up arms. To me dire straights is fairly 'right now', so to speak, that is, non-warriors tossed into a situation where they must take up the sword or die [or see others die] -- as opposed to making women captains of the guard because Mirkwood isn't safe in general or is arguably less safe in some way, when compared to another realm.



Aha! As I said...



So I saw this 'loophole' coming

Some things we do know about Laws And Customs is that it was written by a Man, probably Elfwine, and that it does not deal exclusively with life in Valinor or Aman -- that said, while certain sections would seem to be teaching readers about the Eldar in general, technically even Tolkien says that customs vary in place, time, and in several races of the Eldar.

Even more technically, Tauriel is arguably not Eldarin, or need not be, so one can simply say 'does not necessarily apply' and that's that. But to me anyway, raising Laws And Customs to support Tauriel seems more like pointing to the 'possible' exception rather than the implied general rule therein.

Incidentally the chief guard in Tolkien's Hobbit story is male... I checked the pronoun

The last thing I'm going to say on the matter is that I think Tolkien would have stated it clearly if elven women didn't/couldn't/shouldn't fight under any circumstances, but the fact is that he didn't say that, and so I don't see any problem with putting a woman in a high ranking position. "She's female so she can't" isn't a good enough argument for me.

Stepping out of the discussion now. If anyone wants to discuss it further, PM me!

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- married fingon fingolfinion 6/4/13 -
~art credit~

Yes Tolkien didn't write 'not in any circumstances' -- but he did limit the circumstances to dire straights and desperate defence, while at the same time specifically noting that it was Elven men who normally bore arms.

My argument [anyway] isn't: 'She's female so she can't', it's that Laws And Customs speaks generally to Elven-Men being the warriors, Elven-women being the healers -- and for those that haven't read it, Tolkien himself notes the exception that some Men could be healers, adding that if so they might then abstain from battle and hunting [taking life].

In other words, he notes the exception where Men become healers, but yet not the exception where women become warriors [beyond dire straights of course]. The implication, at least, is rather sweeping, even if there is [admittedly] the 'wiggle room' as noted.

And for myself, I would be prepared to stretch [a bit] the circumstances of 'desperate' but not so far as to include the general circumstances of Thranduil in Mirkwood. In Unfinished Tales it is noted that when the Shadow fell upon Greenwood Thranduil retreated before it as it spread, and finally he chose to make a stronghold underground -- but the Shadow fell on Greenwood as early as 1050 of the Third Age -- very very [very] many years before Bilbo arrived.

Again, I doubt Jackson cares about any of this [if even aware of Laws And Customs], but if one is going to bring up Laws And Customs in effort to support Tauriel's role, then we need to really look at what it says, or even implies -- and in the public threads for those who haven't read this work, I think.

Hey for all we know Tolkien wasn't even thinking of the scenario in Mirkwood when he wrote this document [I doubt he was actually], but my point is simply that it hardly supports the general notion of female Elven warriors in Middle-earth, despite that it speaks to at least one circumstance in which they could, and did, fight...

... and arguably leaves a few 'loopholes' for Jackson's fan fiction here