I think that Arwen and Aragorn go together very well... Even though you may say Aragorn is terrible, and Arwen deserves better, I feel they understand each other well. And as some of you mentioned, the whole story of Beren and Luthien.
I've known they were related for a while, but there were many generations.. uh.... whatever. Lost for words.

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[quote="Tinuviel's Tears"]I think the main reason Tolkien didn't write sickeningly sweet Happily Ever Afters is because he wanted us to be able to relate to his characters and thier stories, which we can. Nobosy has a perfect ending in real life, but he's also trying to tell us that some things are worth making sacrifices for, and true love is one of them.

Thats orate, Tinuviels tears, thats a fair good point loll thanx 4 making it! 8)

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

And if a book ends '...and they lived happily for ever after.' it leaves the ending very dull and open. And it's also very common especially in stories like the sleeping beauty etc. It makes the story more reliable if the end is bittersweet or even better, sad. I think one thing (but not the only one) in which Tolkien really succeeded was making the whole LotR story seem that Frodo will not be able to destroy the Ring. Many times, for examply in movies, I rely on this: 'the main character can't die' and so the plot is very predictable. But in LotR, many times it seems that the Quest has failed, like when Frodo gets stung by Shelob and the orcs take him to Cirith Ungol. So it's very unpredictable and the end is an eucatastrophe. That's how I like stories.

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I revisited AU on Jan 14th after an almost 10-year break! The nostalgia..!

Yeh Variety is the spice of life. I think that all that I can say about this element of the story has already been said @ this moment, will post when I can think of summat knew lol.
Namarie!

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

I think Tolkien wrote a bittersweet ending partly because of his experiences with war. I am not getting political here, no war discussions. But from his letters it sounds like he felt that even the best war will have an unhappy ending and so he put that in his books.

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A quote from a writer about american footbal says "Football is like a nuclear war. There are no winners:onlysurvivors."
Maybe Tolkien felt this way about war and that he chose to weave his own feelings into his story.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

I don't think it was that they just survived. They did win. They got to be with the person they loved most. That was winning for them. That was what they wanted. But happiness doesn't last forever. People don't live forever. It's a reality of life, and Tolkien incorporated that into his works. Still, there is something to be said here for the immortailty of love. Though they died, the story of their love lived on. I think that's another point Tolkien was trying to make.

o.0 you couldn't have said it any better.

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I revisited AU on Jan 14th after an almost 10-year break! The nostalgia..!

Fair point tinuviels tears. Tha is a reasonable arguement like and is exceptionally eloquent in the manner of its writing. I did have something to say, but i choose not to say it now lol.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

Thank you very much, both of you. I'm very glad you like what I said, but EonwesBestMate, I don't want to scare you out of giving your opinion. By all means, share it. I like discussing and debating with people.

Very well then. What of Elrond? He loved Arwen dearly and as he said the love of Aragorn and Arwen could have been preserved evergreen in the undying lands, albeit all but memory. This shows that in their victory lay defeat: a survivor forced to travel to the undying lands lacking one of the people who he loved the most. I agree that Aragorn and Arwen were winners of sorts in their personal trials but in that victory they condemned Elrond to living in Aman bereft of Joy. This shows that in victory there can still be a defeat, however distant it may seem.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

A very fair point. I quite agree with you.
I've thought about this myself. I always feel bad for Elrond. He clearly loved his daughter very, very much. I also feel bad for arwen. Think of how hard the choice must have been for her. No matter what she chose, one of the people she loved most had to suffer.
I think she made the choice she did, because she knew that Elrond would fins peace in Valinor. There was a guarantee of happiness there for him. For Aragorn, he had to stay and face Middle-earth, with all its dangers and toils and grievances and imperfections. In short, she knkew Aragorn needed her more than Elrond did. I think that was one of her motices for choosingto remain with Aragorn.

However, going off topic alittle, what of Finwe? When his wife died he found no true peace in the blessed realm and the same may apply to Elrond.
Please post back lol.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

Yes, but it wasn't Elrond's wife who had died, it was his daughter who was living elsewhere happily, so it's really quite a different situation. And after all, he wasn't going alone. He had Galadriel and Celeborn, Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo. Like I said, I do feel bad for him, but I think Arwen knew Aragorn needed her more.

But wife and daughter are close kin, and although she was living happily he may have been aggrieved thta she chose a man over her own father. He may have felt that he needed her more than him, but that still wouldnt have made their parting any less bitter lol.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

If he really loved her, he would want what was best for her or what made her happiest, which was being with Aragorn. I think Arwen made the right choice.
There is a way to settle this dispute. Did we ever hear of what happened to Elrond when he passed to the Undying Lands, or was it another one of those blanks Tolkien left us to fill? Because if we know what happened to him, we can settle this. Anyone know?