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PostPosted: September 21st, 2006, 9:52 pm 
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I never knew that.....but he was mental and went crazy!!!

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PostPosted: October 7th, 2006, 12:12 am 
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In the book, he dies in the Houses of the Dead which are quite a bit away from the fountain by the White Tree, although I was very sure there was a fountain in the book...I'll look it up. But yes, in the movie, I think Denethor just wanted to die.

Anyway, it all goes back to Sauron doesn't it? Or was it the Palantir itself? What was it that showed Denethor the "fall of Gondor" that convinced him that there was no hope? Was it the Palantir or did Sauron have some control over it and show Denethor different things to manipulate him?

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PostPosted: October 7th, 2006, 9:51 am 
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It was Sauron through the Palantir, twisting and distorting the future into lies which Denethor believed. That's what drove Denethor mad. And to think, all he had tyo do was realize the Palantir was lying. Realize that it was beyond his control and in the power of somone else. That's where his pride comes in, and ultimately it was his pride that was his downfall. In his pride, he thought that he could control the Palantir and bend it to his will, but he could not, and so he suffered the consequences, in this case, the consequences were death. It's rather sad really.


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PostPosted: October 16th, 2006, 8:16 pm 
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I don't think the Palantiri can lie, I think they can only show people certain things to make them think certain things, yeah?

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PostPosted: October 17th, 2006, 1:23 pm 
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heh, he didn't jump in the fountain because:
1. He was crazy
2. He didn't want live
3. he was crazy
4. He wanted to die.
5. He was crazy.

That's an interesting point about the palantir... definately something to think about!

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PostPosted: October 20th, 2006, 10:45 pm 
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The Palantiri can't lie, but Sauron twisted the truth to make ot seem different than it was. denethor saw battle and ruin for Gondor, but he did not see them rising again under a strong leader like Aragorn. Which brings us to another interesting point: Tolkien had to kill Denethor. If Denethor hadn't died, Aragorn wouldn't have become King, at least not immediately because Denethor was too proud to step down and let Aragoprn rule, and Aragorn was too noble to take it by force. So you see, there is a method to the madness. :P


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PostPosted: October 29th, 2006, 11:35 pm 
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I like your statement about Sauron twisting the truth. He showed you the things you didn't want to see, and hid the things that he [Sauron] didn't want to see or didn't want you to see. If you saw the good things that would happen that would cause you to hope.

Ugh... I lost my train of thought and now I don't know where I'm going with this.

However I would like to say that by showing Gondor's downfall to Denethor Sauron was basically sealing his own fate.


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PostPosted: October 30th, 2006, 3:45 am 
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Lalaithnindil wrote:
heh, he didn't jump in the fountain because:
1. He was crazy
2. He didn't want live
3. he was crazy
4. He wanted to die.
5. He was crazy.

That's an interesting point about the palantir... definately something to think about!


I think he was not crazy before when at times Boromir lived. He did not want to live because his sons were dead that disturbed him psychologically. And he has seen the hope was totally lost and disappeared in the Palantir and believed it since his first born was no more. He could not live with the fact that his both sons were dead and decided to kill himself unfortunately.

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PostPosted: December 10th, 2006, 4:42 am 
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^ I agree, I think he went mad because of the grief of his sons' deaths. At Boromir's, it seemed to set him off, and from then on it just went downhill for him, until he decided to take his own life.

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PostPosted: December 26th, 2006, 11:13 am 
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Don't you think Denethor manages to run rather far while on fire? I would think that his legs would burn up in a couple seconds and he wouldn't be able to run.
I always thought that was a bit far fetched.

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PostPosted: December 26th, 2006, 11:13 am 
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Don't you think Denethor manages to run rather far while on fire? I would think that his legs would burn up in a couple seconds and he wouldn't be able to run.
I always thought that was a bit far fetched.

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 Post subject: Denethor's mistake....
PostPosted: January 27th, 2007, 1:16 am 
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There is striking truth in Elrond's words, "It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill." Both Saruman and Denethor let their eyes fall too close to the enemy too often. They thought they were strong but they were deceived and came to the same end.

This a powerful lesson for all of us. If both of these most powerful forces for good could be deceived and led astray then none of us are immune. We are all vulnerable and must be careful what we look at and what we study.

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PostPosted: January 30th, 2007, 1:07 pm 
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*elemmire* wrote:
Don't you think Denethor manages to run rather far while on fire? I would think that his legs would burn up in a couple seconds and he wouldn't be able to run.
I always thought that was a bit far fetched.


It's not, really. It'd take longer than a couple seconds for his legs to burn up. He could actually have run further, probably.

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PostPosted: March 5th, 2008, 1:38 am 
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*checks to make sure he is in the books forum ... yep*

Lest we forget because of the distortions of Peter Jackson's interpretation, Lord Denthor was a noble, strong-willed, and stubborn man, not a drunken slob. He had a fair grasp of both the tactical military as well as the overall strategic situation Gondor was in well before he thought himself strong enough to use Anor-stone, the Palantir of Minas Tirith. Once he decided to use the Anor-Stone, he had a battle of wills with Sauron, who had the Ithil-stone captured when Minas Ithil fell, and this caused him to age prematurely as he was worn down. How much Sauron was able to control what Denethor saw in the stone is open to discussion, but I am of the belief that it was a battle for Sauron to 'break' the spirit of Denethor. This only happened when he gazed into Mordor and saw the massive armies gathering there, and by gazing south, he saw the fleets of Umbar readying to sail against him. Then finding that Sarumann had turned against him with the Orthanc-stone, and the news that Boromir had been killed, and thinking Faramir had also been slain, it all became too much for the man to bear.

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PostPosted: June 22nd, 2008, 12:40 pm 
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Hanasían wrote:
*checks to make sure he is in the books forum ... yep*

Lest we forget because of the distortions of Peter Jackson's interpretation, Lord Denthor was a noble, strong-willed, and stubborn man, not a drunken slob. He had a fair grasp of both the tactical military as well as the overall strategic situation Gondor was in well before he thought himself strong enough to use Anor-stone, the Palantir of Minas Tirith. Once he decided to use the Anor-Stone, he had a battle of wills with Sauron, who had the Ithil-stone captured when Minas Ithil fell, and this caused him to age prematurely as he was worn down. How much Sauron was able to control what Denethor saw in the stone is open to discussion, but I am of the belief that it was a battle for Sauron to 'break' the spirit of Denethor. This only happened when he gazed into Mordor and saw the massive armies gathering there, and by gazing south, he saw the fleets of Umbar readying to sail against him. Then finding that Sarumann had turned against him with the Orthanc-stone, and the news that Boromir had been killed, and thinking Faramir had also been slain, it all became too much for the man to bear.


Here! Here! And well stated! I too, as I was reading this, was checking to make sure that I was in the book thread. And, I was about to reach for my book when I'm reading about the stone "lying" as if it had a power all of it's own; it was a tool that was being used by Sauron. If Denethor had not looked in it, then he would not have been manipulated by Sauron.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: August 22nd, 2012, 4:44 pm 
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Starlight wrote:
Denethor had gone crazy. he was completely mad. Also, he was on fire. There was no way he was going to take the time to look around him and go, "Oh! Water! It can put out the flames!" He was in complete anguish. He wanted to die quickly. He did it the first way he saw how through his insanity and his pain.
At least this is my opioion on it. :P But feel free to disagree.

I totally agree.

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