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 Post subject: Mortality
PostPosted: October 15th, 2006, 10:20 am 
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When Arwen/Luthien became mortal, did they age in the same way as humans?
In the tale about Aragorn and Arwen it says in the end that she looked old and grey after Aragorn died. But even if they were mortal they would still be elves and never get "old"? Or am I wrong? I hope someone knows :confused:

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PostPosted: October 15th, 2006, 5:59 pm 
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I'm not certain, but even thought they choose to become mortal, I believe that the.... magic of their people stays with them, and they live an unusually long life, longer even than the long lives of the Dunedain. I think Luthien died with Beren, so that she didn't have to stay behind, but Arwen did linger, and she was so sad that she laid herself down to die under the trees of Lothlorien.
Once again, I'm not really sure, and I could be wrong, so if someone wnats to correct me..........


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PostPosted: October 15th, 2006, 6:09 pm 
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I think you're right there, Tinuviel! That's also what I know.

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PostPosted: October 16th, 2006, 12:39 pm 
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And one thing I don't understand... If Arwen became mortal, why does Elrond talk about her being left alone? I mean, wouldn't she die? And even if she didn't become mortal, she would have died of a broken heart, right? I mean, can't elves only die in battle or of a broken heart?

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PostPosted: October 16th, 2006, 6:01 pm 
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Right. Elves can only die from sorrow or battle. And Arwen probably would have died of a broken heart if she would have sailed away from Aragorn, but I don't think Elrond realized that. I think he thought that he loved arwen enough to make up for Aragorn or something. And he said that arwen would be left alone because she would "linger." Although she would still die eventually, it would be many years after Aragorn, and through those years she would be left alone, none of her kindred left to comfort her. I think that's what Elrond meant. Again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


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PostPosted: October 17th, 2006, 2:22 am 
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But if she had sailed away, she wouldn't have died, because she would have lived in the Undying lands, and she'd just always carry the sorrow with her. Elrond probably wanted what was best for her, but was so set on it he didn't think through it very well.... That make sense to any of you?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 17th, 2006, 2:37 am 


I don't think they did age the same way as human, because technically they were still elven. In Luthiens case, after they returned from the halls of mandos, they did not live for very long (in relative terms) and so ageing wasn't a problem. Luthien died at the same time as Beren as she did not want to be parted from him.

In Arwen's case, she was still an elf, even if she had 'given up her mortality'. She died in a standard elven fashion (She died of grief) and presumably, still looking quite young, though it is possible that her grief would have aged her. Technically elves age as well, but much, much slower than humans.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 19th, 2006, 2:42 pm 
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Thank you for many great answers!

Aftenstjerne :angel:


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PostPosted: October 20th, 2006, 10:35 pm 
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Yes, thanks Darrell for clearing that up. That was pretty much what I thought, but wasn't really sure on. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 25th, 2006, 9:14 am 
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Mortality of elves...now that's an interesting discussion..

No, i do believe that the age transition is absolutley guarenteed. The fact that Arwen chose to become mortal meant that she was undertaking the thoughts of getting older, and eventually being faced with the inevitable fate of all humans.

The fact that she becomes old and grey after Argorn's passing however, could mean that the transition is a much slower process, and the fact that her immortality is being taken out of her, could mean that it takes much longer for the physical signs to occur, she may have become old and grey because of grief and longing for Aragorn.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 27th, 2006, 3:48 am 
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I tend to agree with Darrell on this subject.

I've always thought of the use of 'old and grey' meaning, not wrinkly and stuff, but pallid and ancient, but in the manner of the elves. More of an aura, not an actual physical appearance.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 29th, 2006, 3:19 pm 
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Yeah I agree with most of the thoughts here. I can't picture Arwen turning old just having this aura about her - almost like Galadriel in a way. I believe it says something about age showing in their eyes in FotR at the Council of Elrond.

I reckon Arwen died of a broken heart more than anything else, I think that can wear away at a human more than anything in the world too. Though I would like to think that Eldarion offered her some comfort.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 29th, 2006, 11:44 pm 
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If only there was some kind of ratio between the aging of Elves and Humans. We do know that Elves age a lot slower than Humans [and when I say a lot, I mean a lot], but we do not know how much slower. We also assume that even if Arwen became mortal the " magic" of her people would still kind of protect her from the aging of mortals, just as Tinuviel said before.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 30th, 2006, 6:29 am 


To my deeming, Arwen did not become 'human'. She was only 'mortal' because she chose to die. At any point she could have left for the undying lands. Right up to the moment of her death she was still immortal. She died in one of the ways elves can. From grief. Technically, she was still immortal, even though she had 'forsaken the immortal life'.


I would say that because of the huge difference between the way elves age, and the way humnas age, that a ratio would be impossible. Also, some elves' age faster than others, depending on what they have been through. Gwindor, for example, aged far faster than his contemporaries because of what he was subjected to during his life.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 30th, 2006, 11:05 pm 
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Arwen had to have aged like the mortals....she did give up her immortality!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: December 1st, 2006, 12:01 pm 


Nope. She did not age like mortals. That's my point in both of my posts above in this thread. I won'y make my points again, but could you please read them.

And maybe you would care to make some counterpoints to the ones I made, in order to back up your statement?


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