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PostPosted: October 30th, 2006, 6:29 am 


To my deeming, Arwen did not become 'human'. She was only 'mortal' because she chose to die. At any point she could have left for the undying lands. Right up to the moment of her death she was still immortal. She died in one of the ways elves can. From grief. Technically, she was still immortal, even though she had 'forsaken the immortal life'.


I would say that because of the huge difference between the way elves age, and the way humnas age, that a ratio would be impossible. Also, some elves' age faster than others, depending on what they have been through. Gwindor, for example, aged far faster than his contemporaries because of what he was subjected to during his life.


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PostPosted: November 30th, 2006, 11:05 pm 
Ringwraith
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Arwen had to have aged like the mortals....she did give up her immortality!

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PostPosted: December 1st, 2006, 12:01 pm 


Nope. She did not age like mortals. That's my point in both of my posts above in this thread. I won'y make my points again, but could you please read them.

And maybe you would care to make some counterpoints to the ones I made, in order to back up your statement?


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 Post subject: Stop All the Clocks!
PostPosted: November 5th, 2007, 11:51 pm 
Gondorian
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Darrell wrote:
....Right up to the moment of her death she was still immortal. She died in one of the ways elves can. From grief. Technically, she was still immortal, even though she had 'forsaken the immortal life'.


From grief. And oh the intense loss of mortals in love. Sometimes I walk in the graveyard. It is a peaceful and beautiful place in the fall with all the trees. Yesterday I noticed a marble bench in front of a grave. The wife's name was there but not the husband's yet. On the bench was a picture of them together. I asked my friend about it and he said that he comes every day to talk to her and bring flowers. And she died 10 years ago!!!

Having lost my wife I understand a little of that grief! I sooooo feel for Arwen!! There is a poem by WH Auden that I can't read with dry eyes or without thinking of Arwen:

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message He Is Dead,
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last for ever: I was wrong.

The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

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Last edited by Sinbearer on November 11th, 2007, 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop All the Clocks!
PostPosted: November 6th, 2007, 1:12 am 
Gondorian
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Oooops!

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Last edited by Sinbearer on November 6th, 2007, 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: November 6th, 2007, 4:05 am 
Dunadan
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Somewhat OT, but I love that Auden poem!

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PostPosted: November 6th, 2007, 6:34 am 
Vala
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O_o this goes along the lines of what I just mentioned in the "Why didn't Arwen sail over?" topic. Obviously, my comment there was misplaced.

Arwen's story is, in many ways, even more sad and touching than Lúthien's--yes, Beren and Lúthien went through a lot together, and their love was incredibly strong, etc (their story is my favourite of all of the ones that Tolkien wrote), but Beren died permanently. And Lúthien died permanently. Arwen was still immortal, thus after Aragorn's death, and after her own, she was in the Halls of Mandos waiting for 're-embodiment', while Lúthien left the world 'with' Beren. Arwen had to remain, without Aragorn.

But both stories are really poignant and touching.

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 Post subject: Not a lick of sense...
PostPosted: November 7th, 2007, 5:06 pm 
Gondorian
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:blink: I guess I will have to be satisfied with the touching poignancy of their stories to the point of the 'dark curtain' because the soul death, physical death and 're-embodiment' concepts don't make a lick of sense to me. To die of grief just to go to a place where you will continue to be tortured with the grief that took your physical life? What is the point of that (or in re-embodiment for that matter) if your beloved isn't there? If the physical body cannot withstand that kind of grief in the first place, what makes the difference when it is re-embodied? It would just die again.

Arwen's love, lost in the caverns of a seeming eternity, searching but ever thwarted from finding her beloved Aragorn once more! *slowly shaking head*

And to say that Arwen would not feel that love after death is to say horrible things about love. Love is forever and NEVER dies. A love that doesn't survive death and cross over the the other side is not really love at all. My idea of life after death has to include loved ones that are precious to me now--loved ones that I can see and touch, including the greatest Lover of them all--God.

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PostPosted: November 8th, 2007, 12:58 pm 
Vala
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Well, we don't honestly know how long Mandos keeps people in his Halls--the only ones we know pass through instead of merely into are Finrod and Glorfindel--as for others, we can only speculate.

So it might be (and I hope it is, actually) that Arwen stayed in his Halls until the breaking of the world, when she and Aragorn could be reunited. Otherwise, I don't know how she could survive, though she would have the help of quite a few caring people, if she was in Valinor when she 'got out'.

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PostPosted: November 8th, 2007, 2:19 pm 
Vala
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Pfft. :P

I'd still like to think that she wasn't re-embodied until after the breaking of the world and her reunion with Aragorn. It's a much more touching idea. :)

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PostPosted: November 8th, 2007, 2:35 pm 
Vala
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Aerlinn wrote:
And since Arwen would probably still be grieving...I don't think she was ever re-embodied.


That's what I was working off of.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 8th, 2007, 2:44 pm 
Vala
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Okay, confusion unconfused. w00t for us.

I wonder just how many Elves ever left the Halls of Mandos before the Dagor Dagorath.

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