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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 3:47 am 


^Yep, I was about to ask the sam question :P

The second quote, as you say, just refers to the 'last ship' which may well not have been Sam's


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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 4:46 am 
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The first quote is from www.wikipedia.org. :)

Yup, Sam and Cirdan's ship was definetly not the last.

I think that Cirdan did go with Samwise, because it was the last grey ship to sail, and those were only built by Cirdan. I don't, it just seems logical for him to go then. But maybe Ulmo wanted him to stay till every elf who meant to sail to the Undying Lands had passed into the West. Can't be sure. But I some how feel he left with the last ringbearer, Sam, since he himself had also been a ringbearer of Narya.

And there's no way of knowing whether Legolas and Gimli's was the last ship. I kind of doubt it, seeing as how other elves still remained and probably left after 120 of the fourth age.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 4:56 am 
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It's from Wikipedia? :yeahright: Was there a source quoted on there as to where that was from?

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 7:38 am 
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I have followed your discussions and it all seems plausible.. the main problem is the secondary sources, but I'll let you debate in peace.

I still regard the White Ship the last ship to leave the shores of Middle-earth - in poetic terms - because it carried the Ringbearers and the keepers of the Elven rings. Whether it technically was the last ship isn't as important to me, but it certainly is interesting to follow your discussions.
Also I came to think about the last of the elves to remain in Middle-earth into the Fourth Age. It must have been such a different life for them... very secluded... well, it already was in the late part of the Third Age, but then they were at least more elves to be secluded together!! :P

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Last edited by on February 23rd, 2007, 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 8:33 am 
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Eä wrote:
I still regard the White Ship the last ship to leave the shores of Middle-earth - in poetic terms - because it carried the Ringbearers and the keepers of the Elven rings.


:blink: That made like, no sense to me and my confused brain.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 10:00 am 
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When the movie, and I, in general refer to the last ship I would consider it the ship that carried the Ringbearers and the keepers of the Elven Rings, because the high elves leaving Middle-earth would definately emphasize the ending of an era and the beginning of a new age (Fourth Age). It might be that there were other smaller ships (and dinghys!) leaving for the Undying Lands, but I don't regard them as important, because technically it doesn't mean anything to the plot or to the historicity of Middle-earth.

So for me referring to the White Ship as the last makes sense, even though it may not have been literally the last ship - which is the fact you are debating over now!
Did it make more sense? :angel:

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Last edited by on February 23rd, 2007, 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 10:08 am 
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Yeah, that makes sense now. Thanks.

And your points are valid, though once again, I find nothing in them to debate over. We share the same opinion once again. :)

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 11:44 am 
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Eä wrote:
It might be that there were other smaller ships (and dinghys!) leaving for the Undying Lands, but I don't regard them as important, because technically it doesn't mean anything to the plot or to the historicity of Middle-earth.


This is the only point I disagree with. After all I regard Legolas and Gimli's passing to be of importance.

1- Because its the ending of the fellowship. All the other members have sailed the sea or died. For Leglas and Gimli to pass marks the end of an era almost.
and 2- As GIMLI is aloud to pass, which in itself is very unusual for an elf to exept a dwarf and a dwarf to exept an elf (or elves as he is).

This is basically my opinion on the matterbut then agai, each to their own.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 12:32 pm 
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did you type that fast? Lol...

Those are some good points, fair rider, but I think Ea was just forgetting about Legolas and Gimli momentarily.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 1:08 pm 
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^ Yep I'm getting better :-D .

Well if we forget Legolas and Gimli I suppose what Ea said is fine.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 4:08 pm 
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Thank you for defending me Aerandear, but I didn't forget about Legolas and Gimli. But yes, I do regard their passing as less worth of mentioning than the ending of the Third Age and the beginning of a new era. You are right, fair rider, that the passing of the last members of the Fellowship is also important in relation to the War of the Ring, but perhaps not so much in relation to all the ages of Middle-earth. Another thing... Merry and Pippin... did they still live at that time, after all they were younger than any other of the Fellowship, but neither the days they died nor the year when Legolas and Gimli passed over the sea is known as well as when the White Ship left Mithlond.
So this is my explanation for not regarding ships following the high elven ship as nearly as important, but as you say, this is really a matter of personal opinion, so no right or wrong answers! :-)

But in fact I didn't mean to interrupt you discussion on quoting and sources. Please carry on.. Aerandir, Arien and A Wandering Dark! :angel:

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 4:20 pm 
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I think Merry and Pippin died before Aragorn did....*searches for book*

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 5:06 pm 
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*Joins Aerandir in search*

In 1484 it says (again this is in Shire recconing)...

Quote:
It was heard after that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Eomer before he died in that autumn. Then he and Thain Peregrin went to Gondor and passed what short years were left to them in that realm, untill they died nd were laid in Rath Dinen amoung the great of Gondor


Legolas and Gimli sailed in 1541, so to answer your question Ea, yes Merry and Pippin were dead.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 6:37 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
It's from Wikipedia? :yeahright: Was there a source quoted on there as to where that was from?


lol Yeah, I tend to doubt Wiki at times too, but it had an exact date, so I'm sure that it has some truth to it, at the least. It could possibly be from a letter of Tolkien's or something similar. So according to Wiki, Cirdan left with Samwise in 62 of the 4th Age. Legolas and Gimli passed later, but I'm sure there were other crafts as well that passed later with the last of the lingering elves, but not of as signifcance.

But I agree with Ea, that when looking at the 'big picture', the ship that carried Galadriel and the lot to the Undying Lands, could metaphorically refer to the last ship since their departure symbolizes the end of the third age. Legolas and Gimli are support characters. But when it comes down to "factually" which was the 'last ship', I don't think it has ever been stated; because it just wasn't of importance I suppose.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 6:43 pm 
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Here are the main places I refer to for quotes:

Cirdan's entry at Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirdan

Cirdan's entry at The Thain's Book:
http://www.tuckborough.net/cirdan.html

Encyclopedia of Arda:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

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PostPosted: January 12th, 2008, 9:54 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
Eä wrote:
Hmm.... did Círdan leave on the ship? I'm not sure if Tolkien mentions it. But if he did so, it could be considered the last Elven ship to leave Middle-earth, since he was the lord of the Grey Havens.

Actually, I've thought of it.. the last Elven ship.. more poetically. Like a metaphor for the elves leaving Middle-earth because of the age of men, more than an exact ship that was said to be the very last.


Yeah, Círdan did leave on that ship, at least as far as I remember it. I'm pretty sure it was the last ship to leave from the Grey Havens, though.


Really? I thought that Ciridan sailed to Valinor about a thousand years later... :confused:


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