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 Post subject: True Friendship
PostPosted: May 29th, 2011, 11:13 pm 
Istari
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occasionally I have my musings, and this is one of them. my apologies if there's already a thread about this or if it's already been discussed. :lost: just wanted to share this.

so a lot of times when I mention Lord of the Rings to people around my age group - actually, almost every time! - the person says that they "don't like the Sam/Frodo relationship". the first time I heard that, I was like, "what? what are you talking about?" and got the reply, "you know... it's kind of weird, their relationship. it's not just a friends thing." which, of course, effectively closed the discussion of LotR. but that got me thinking...

did anyone else have this impression of the friendship between Frodo and Sam, namely that which is most evident in Return of the King? I didn't! I'm not making a stab at a gay/homosexual lifestyle, but I know that's not what Tolkien was portraying in his books, or Jackson in the movies. I think, sadly, today the world has lost that beautiful sense of close friendship between two guys or two girls. I don't mean the, "we're best friends, happy-goofy" relationship that's quite evident (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it - sometimes those friendships are the most enjoyable), but the stronger bond between the two people that goes beyond that. The friendship between Sam and Frodo is a close bond, a willingness to share in both the happier times and the difficult times, even if it may take them to the edge of death. to have a friendship like that, the two people must have a deeper understanding of each other, though they may not completely know everything about the other person. Sam, for instance, takes care of Frodo because Frodo finds it difficult to deal with normal things beyond the Ring, such as finding places to rest or food to eat. despite the fact Gollum plants doubt and despair in Frodo's mind, he sees, when Gollum is gone, how much he needs Sam. And it's Sam who eventually rescues Frodo.

now, if many people saw a friendship like that, it would seem "creepy" or "wrong". how did people begin to think like that and abandon the idea of a closer, deeper friendship?

ok... so that was my thinking for the evening. ;) does anyone else have thoughts about this?

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 1st, 2011, 9:27 am 
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Oh, I totally agree with you, Alanna. Most people around my age (and I daresay yours, too?) just don't get the deeper meaning of the Frodo/Sam relationship. They usually just go right to the stuff they see on the surface, instead of taking the time to actually dig deeper and see what Tolkien really meant. I'm going into high school, and this is what I see: people not bothering to read, or if they do, not thinking about the meaning, or just making fun of the characters/book in general. I know that my friends don't understand the LotR books and the Frodo/Sam relationship, and because they don't understand it, they make fun of it. Those are my thoughts.

Um. . yeah. My rant of the day, I guess! :blush: Haha. :)

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 1st, 2011, 5:56 pm 
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yes, that's exactly what I mean. right now I'm rereading Return of the King, and there's plenty of places where, on the surface, it would be material for someone to poke at: Sam kissing Frodo's forehead, Sam and Frodo waking up "hand in hand", etc. These can't be taken out of context - rather, they have a deeper meaning when the whole book is read by someone who's looking for it.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 6th, 2011, 10:50 pm 
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Well, In book-verse they seem far closer, and have a deep meaning about their relationship that is never quite made clear to the reader by text, and is something the reader has to solve out on his or her own to fully understand it, and if the reader fails in understanding it then it might make them see it as gay, because they have no clear understanding of it and therefore go to the only conclusion that makes sense to their mind.
In a sense it really just depends on the reader's personal experience how they interpret Frodo and Sam's relationship. If one is reading about Frodo and Sam's actions "hand in hand", Frodo kissing Sam's forehead etc, and have never felt that kind of connection themselves before, it might put awkward pressure on themselves, and they laugh it off and call it gay to be rid of that pressure. Whereas if one has actually felt that feeling before, it might make more sense to them.
Besides, the general public naturally like to turn beautiful complex things into something funny and stupid. At least that has been my experience. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 7th, 2011, 12:40 am 
Istari
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well, that's a good way to think of it - though I've never had a friendship quite like Frodo and Sam, and I do understand it. I guess the world, as you said, doesn't want to stop and think about those things, they just quickly glaze over it without offering to give it some more thought.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 8th, 2011, 12:41 pm 
Istari
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One way to see it is like you said, the way the world quickly gazes at something they don't understand and make random assumptions. I like reading Medieval books and when some parts happen that people think weird, well, I would understand it more because of the time period. Middle earth was also set in this time period.
In those days there was also something else known as 'blood brothers' you would cut your hand with a knife and swear that you were brothers with whoever. I think it was roughly the same with Sam and Frodo but without the blood or knife. THey knew that they were like brothers in a sense.

Longest post I've ever written! :p

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 9th, 2011, 1:30 am 
Istari
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yeah, I've read about that process of making each other blood brothers, and apparently it was a very serious occasion. but that's true - Frodo and Sam don't do that.
I think it's interesting how Sam often thinks of Frodo as being someone to be taken care of at all costs, as a master. Frodo, however, doesn't really see Sam in the reverse way as being a loyal servant or something.
Sam's dedication and urge to take care of Frodo, I think, is another element of friendship rarely explored. it's a willingness to do whatever it takes to ensure the well being of someone you care about.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 9th, 2011, 2:31 pm 
Istari
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Yeah, a lot of people in the world today think something else so they don't have to think. One time in a car ride with some acquaintances, the driver asked us some questions until the other passengers asked him to stop because he was 'making them think too much'. Fortunately for me though my actual friends all like LOTR, so I don't have to hear about excuses instead of thoughts and reason.
What is interesting is how Sam and Frodo's friendship progresses. First Samwise is just Frodo's gardener and just merely a friend. In fact Tolkien states that before Merry was Frodo's best friend. All it took was an adventure and they were almost inseparable friends. Sadly, the world doesn't realize they they were like brothers. :-( :'-(
Oh well, at least we do! :-D

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: June 29th, 2011, 6:32 am 
Istari
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I never felt that Frodo & Sam are more than friends in this *special* meaning. Yes, their friendship is very close and they would sacrifice their lives to protect each other but I don't like subtext character when its really not necessary...

My mother always say that Sam loved Frodo as a lover and laugh because of that, but she is anti Frodo & Sam friendship, so I can understand that. Many of my younger friends like to ship Sam & Frodo because this wave is now popular, everyone like to gay-pair their favorite character.

I don't :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: July 2nd, 2011, 9:08 am 
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Seriously? In the medieval times that wouldn't be considered gay or anything. In fact, I'm sure Tolkien (check that, I know Tolkien) wouldn't write something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: July 8th, 2011, 1:57 pm 
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^I agree, Tolkien was definitely not the sort of person who would write about a gay relationship. I think more people are actually wanting to find that relationship in the books and identify themselves with it, though I wish they wouldn't because that's not at all how it's supposed to be.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: July 12th, 2011, 12:55 am 
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I agree with you all. I have always loved the portrayal of Sam and Frodo's relationship so when I read about the waking up hand in hand and kiss Frodo's forehead it just seems right. I picture them as friends who are as close as brothers, although there is no blood bond between them. People who see their relationship as gay, are not looking at it right. I have a brother and he has kissed me on the forehead and I rather enjoyed the experience because I knew that he loved me and I loved him. There is nothing nicer than to have that bond and those who haven't felt it yet, will understand when they do.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: July 14th, 2011, 3:20 am 
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In agreement with everyone. In the time era this story was written, that sort of behavior was normal. I've heard of some people makin fun of Aragorn kissing Boromir on the head when he died and I was like 'what the crap?' Todays culture just isnt used to such close bonds, I guess. Its very frustrating, because the Sam/Frodo relationship is an inspirational one for me at least, theirs is like the ultimate friendship.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: July 21st, 2011, 6:36 pm 
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Laesneniel wrote:
I agree with you all. I have always loved the portrayal of Sam and Frodo's relationship so when I read about the waking up hand in hand and kiss Frodo's forehead it just seems right. I picture them as friends who are as close as brothers, although there is no blood bond between them. People who see their relationship as gay, are not looking at it right. I have a brother and he has kissed me on the forehead and I rather enjoyed the experience because I knew that he loved me and I loved him. There is nothing nicer than to have that bond and those who haven't felt it yet, will understand when they do.


^I like this. the friendship between Frodo and Sam just feels so right, like it belongs - it's a rare relationship, but one that should be treasured.

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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: July 22nd, 2011, 4:21 am 
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I think Frodo and Sam's relationship is really sweet and totally like me and my friends's. Its the kind that makes you do anything for them and let nothing stand in the way. Its so cute. I love how Sam cares enough to carry through with Frodo's quest until the very end. :angel: Thats what I had to say!


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 Post subject: Re: True Friendship
PostPosted: July 23rd, 2011, 6:05 am 
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I think too, that the Frodo-Sam friendship is very nice, and it is sad to see, what the world is getting to. Someone can't love his/her friend truly as a friend nowadays, because if he/she those, then the others start thinking that? Oh, come on, that's ridiculous!
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