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PostPosted: October 8th, 2006, 5:31 pm 
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EonwesBestMate wrote:
They dont go to Valinor like Ea thinks but they go to Tol Eressea, the lonly Isle just east of Valinor, but the exiles cannot go back to Valinor and Tirion.

Well, technically I have always seen Tol Eressëa as part of the undying Lands. It is located just east of the shore, but removed from the circles of the world, so it cannot be reached from Middle-earth unless the Valar permit it.

As far as I remember the Exiles eventually were forgiven by the Valar and permitted into Valinor again.... Galadriel for instance had fallen under the ban when she followed Fëanor, but she returned to the West.


I can see you just recently joined A-U. Welcome to the forum, EonwesBestMate :angel:

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PostPosted: October 8th, 2006, 6:16 pm 
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First Please, do not speak to me in such a condescending tone as you would if you had SAID this to my face. I will gladly accept that you construed the undying lands as including Tol Eressea (even though it wasnt in the beginning, being in the middle of the sea until the Valar moved it ) and that I can accept but you say the exiles were allowed to live in Valinor when you are clearly mistaken. For Aman the blessed was divided into 2 bits, the eastern shore around the great bay whcih was called Eldamar or elvenhome and the lands beyond the mountains west of Eldamar lay the land of the Valar or Valinore. If you had said that they were permitted to dwell in Eldamar I would have accepted that but you said Valinor which is incorrect. I apologise deeply if you feel I am having a go, I am not but the last sentance really annoyed me as I have been reading Tolkiens books for about 6 years and I hate being spoken to in such a manner.
Thank you for your welcome Ea, I hope to have more verbal discourses with you soon.
Namarie

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PostPosted: October 8th, 2006, 7:35 pm 
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What I say here is nothing different from what I would say in a direct conversation. I had no intentions of being condescending to you. I used Valinor as a general name for the Undying Lands meaning the West in contrast to the lands of Middle-earth. I am aware that many elves, including many of the Exiles, would live on Tol Eressëa, but it was also my impression that some of them would be allowed to settle in Eldamar as well.

I do not question your knowldge on Tolkien's work. We are all here to exchange ideas and opinions on LotR, to enrich each other on information and perspectives. I am sure we will have other conversations here. There are may active threads on all aspects on Tolkien's work.

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PostPosted: October 8th, 2006, 7:44 pm 
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I agree with you on this now. Again, my greatest apologies if you feel I unleashed the verbal "big guns" on you and I thought that you felt they lived in Valinor as well as Tol Eressea. I hope that we may have many more such dicussions in the future, that we may learn and by our knowledge enrich all valinor. Sorry, enrich the forum is what I meant.
Thank you for your points of view Friend.
Namarie fo the moment!!!!

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PostPosted: October 8th, 2006, 11:07 pm 
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I'm sure Ea didn't mean to condescend to you EonwesBestMate. We have a wide range of people here--some of us have never read the books and others have read them 20 times. I'm glad you found us and I hope you enjoy yourself here.

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 4:08 am 
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EonwesBestMate wrote:
I agree with you on this now. Again, my greatest apologies if you feel I unleashed the verbal "big guns" on you and I thought that you felt they lived in Valinor as well as Tol Eressea. I hope that we may have many more such dicussions in the future, that we may learn and by our knowledge enrich all valinor. Sorry, enrich the forum is what I meant.
Thank you for your points of view Friend.
Namarie fo the moment!!!!

It's quite alright. I don't necessarily want people to agree with me, as great debates and new perspectives aren't fostered through consensus *smiles* However, I hope we can keep a respectful tone all the way. As Firiel mentions, we are very different people here; some have only seen the movies and others are almost Tolkien experts, we come from all over the world, from various cultures and religions. But of course we need to have the facts right. I appreciate being corrected when I am wrong.
I am looking forward to see your views on Tolkien's work around the forum and to be debating with you again. We always welcome new members who enthusiastically will discuss LotR. :angel:

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 6:53 am 


Hmm, I'm afraid I don't agree with you Eonwesbestmate. After the War of Wrath, the Noldor were pardoned (as far as I can recall) and allowed back to the undying lands. Whilst it is true that many of the 'exiles' settled on Tol Eressëa, nowhere is it said they could not return to Tirion.

If you could find me a source than proves me wrong, then please give me it :P

And I also include the Lonely Isle as part of Valinor, as it is, as Ea said, beyond the bounds of the world.


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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 1:07 pm 
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I appreciate Ea's point of View and I too, like Ea , like posessing the truth if I can, even if it defeats my point. I also am very glad to have found a place where one my love for LOTR can be shared and some of the knowledge I have acquired passed around and Two where I can find such great people who seek for a similar thing to myself, a better knowledge of Tolkien. Thank you Firiel and Ea for your speech in this debate. Much appreciated.
Namarie!!!! *inclines head in respect*

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 1:25 pm 
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Good point here Darrell. I have looked through reference books and have found a reference in th e atlas of Tolkiens middle earth that the city of Avallone was raised up as a "waystation" but it also says in the Silmarillion that they dwelt there only temporary. Some did settle permanently, but as you said, there was no ban on them by the valar. But some of the Noldor may have "self exiled" themselves on Tol Eressea but as far as I can see it doesnt say thay couldnt return to tirion.
Thanks for correcting me Darrell, it is most appreciated.
Namarie!!!

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 1:30 pm 
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I think maybe part of it is that Tokien worked on the mythology for so long that we have several different versions to deal with. Just a thought.

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 1:37 pm 
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Yeah, some were deleted and emended, but Tolkien does get quite confusin for all the different versions. That was his dedication to th egenre.
Nice thought Firiel, food for thought (all for me!!!)
Hannon Le and Namarie!!

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 2:21 pm 


EonwesBestMate wrote:
Good point here Darrell. I have looked through reference books and have found a reference in th e atlas of Tolkiens middle earth that the city of Avallone was raised up as a "waystation" but it also says in the Silmarillion that they dwelt there only temporary. Some did settle permanently, but as you said, there was no ban on them by the valar. But some of the Noldor may have "self exiled" themselves on Tol Eressea but as far as I can see it doesnt say thay couldnt return to tirion.
Thanks for correcting me Darrell, it is most appreciated.
Namarie!!!


Hey no problem :D We all like to have our knowledge advanced. No doubt there will be something in my knowledge that needs filling or correcting, that you can help me with!

It's good to have LotR discussors. Most people don't bother with this section :(


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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 2:30 pm 
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Larael wrote:
Exactly what Eä said.

The Elves went over the Sea to Valinor, or the Undying Lands. Mortals were not aloud to go there, but sometimes the Valar made exceptions [i.e. Frodo, Bilbo, etc.]


wern't frodo and bilbo immortal because they wore the ring? they were ring-bearers. just wondering

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 2:31 pm 
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I would be pleased to help fill in gaps in anyones knowledge on this forum if I can, and I like the same doing to me when I dont know something. If you lack knowledge, give me a call and I will try to help if I can! This section is one of the most interesting. its a shame most dont bother lol. Kinda cool/ wierd avatars
Namarie!!!!!

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 2:38 pm 
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I dont think so as the ring only stretched out the lifespan of an individual and also that though Aman was blessed, I doubt that Frodo and Bilbo would have been made immortal as it was not their fate like the Eldar to live Forever. I think it says something in the Akallabeth about the fate of Mortals who live in Aman, can anyone remember it and tell me what it was?

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 2:42 pm 


Lady of Taniquetil wrote:
Larael wrote:
Exactly what Eä said.

The Elves went over the Sea to Valinor, or the Undying Lands. Mortals were not aloud to go there, but sometimes the Valar made exceptions [i.e. Frodo, Bilbo, etc.]


wern't frodo and bilbo immortal because they wore the ring? they were ring-bearers. just wondering


No. they were still normal, mortal Hobbits. The only reason they will live forever is because they went to the undying lands, two of just three to do so successfully. Though the reason they were allowed to Valinor was because they had been ring bearers.


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