Arwen-Undomiel.com
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/

where do the Elves go??
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4026		 Page 6 of 7
Author:  Elwing_Star_Spray [ October 22nd, 2006, 7:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Eä wrote:
Thanks for the kudos guys... *bows*

I don't think we should necessarily force the discussion to go on, if neither of us have anything to add to it at the moment. I'm sure the topic will live on and other people will post here as well with new perspectives, opinions or doubts!! :-D


You're welcome, Eä. I agree with you. If none of us can come up with anything to say, we shouldn't force a conversation. However, if we can come up with something, we should say it. I have something: Does anyone agree with me when I say that Minas Tirith gives off the impression of being very cold? Not temperature-wise, attitude-wise. It also looks cold, being made of stone and what-not.
Author:  Eä [ October 23rd, 2006, 4:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Lol Elwing, I can always come up with something to say!! However, I think it would be a little confusing to start a completely new topic in this thread which deals with *glances to topic title* where the elves go. :-)
I am inclined to agree with you that Minas Tirith appears a little cold, but perhaps you should start the topic in a new thread, so also more people would see it!! And if it deals spcifically with the movies, it should be in the movie section. :angel:
Author:  Elwing_Star_Spray [ October 23rd, 2006, 5:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Eä wrote:
Lol Elwing, I can always come up with something to say!! However, I think it would be a little confusing to start a completely new topic in this thread which deals with *glances to topic title* where the elves go. :-)
I am inclined to agree with you that Minas Tirith appears a little cold, but perhaps you should start the topic in a new thread, so also more people would see it!! And if it deals spcifically with the movies, it should be in the movie section. :angel:


*glances at thread title* Um...my bad. I had looked at the title of this thread rather quickly before, and thought it was entitled Minas Tirith, not Where do the Elves go? Sorry, everyone :blush:. I must say thank-you to you, though, Eä. Thanks!
Author:  Sinbearer [ November 5th, 2007, 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Those same undying lands?
Eä wrote:
Good... I'll try to sum it up briefly. Basically we settled on... The elves go to the Undying Lands after leaving Middle-earth in the Fourth Age. They settle in Tirion in Eldamar or on Eressëa, even the Exiled are allowed to go back.


Eä, Darrell.....you both have thought and talked about this subject at length. I'm still curious about one thing. Do Elves that die, Arwen included, eventually make it to those same Undying Lands? Is death just another path to the same place? I guess Gandalf did say, "Death is just another path, one that we ALL must take...." Who all did Gandalf's ALL include? And did that everyone included in that ALL go to the same white shores?
Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 8:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Ah, interesting topic. I think that the only ones included in that 'all' are the Elves and Ainur. Perhaps Ents are included as well. However, I don't think that Dwarves and hobbits are included (though we never get told where hobbits go when they die), and we know that Men aren't included--at least, they won't be going there until after the Dagor Dagorath. Until then, they go to a place that few know--perhaps only Ilúvatar, Manwë, and Mandos.

Well, actually--I suppose yes, everyone's included in that 'All', as they all die (minus the immortal ones, such as the Ents, Elves, and Ainur, who only die by happenstance), except not everyone goes to the Undying Lands.

Anyway....yeah.
Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 10:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, I'm actually not so certain that hobbits are descended from men. <_< But I'm still of the opinion that hobbits go wherever it is that men go.

And I had forgotten that Men do stop in the Halls of Mandos for a short time (hey, I haven't read The Silmarillion in a year, okay? :P), but I still wouldn't call that being 'in Valinor'. I mean, it's only a stopping point before they go on to...wherever it is that men go. It's more like having a layover in an airort, instead of the situation with the Elves, where the Halls of Mandos are where they stay until they are re-embodied.

Aerlinn, and Sinbearer too, that line from Gandalf's is only from the movie. It's actually taken from "The Grey Havens" at the end of RotK--it's Sam's vision as Frodo, Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, etc., all sail away.
Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 10:17 am ]
Post subject: 
w00tness! I'm right. It's been admitted. *feels good* :P

So in LotR, the White Shores are supposed to be Valinor.
Author:  Sinbearer [ November 6th, 2007, 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Questions....questions...
Aerandir wrote:
w00tness! I'm right. It's been admitted. *feels good* :P

So in LotR, the White Shores are supposed to be Valinor.


And it should feel good cause you are right! I withdraw that quote. * :blush: * But I my question still stands about Arwen. Elves that die apparently go to the same Undying Lands as those that sail so what is the big deal? Why should Arwen be distraught when after a few hundred years she will be reunited with Elrond anyway? What am I missing here?

And you also have to remember the words of Aragorn (which are in the book), "and beyond is more than memory." as I mentioned in another thread. Those words have no comfort for anyone unless he was talking about reunion with Arwen and, more specifically, a reconstitution of all the memories they shared.

So the other thing I am wondering is: How do Aragorn and Arwen end up in the same place after leaving the circles of the world?
Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 11:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, a few hundred years is certainly a long time to be parted from one's father, and I think that the love between them was great. And if you think about it, Arwen had to pass through death to meet Elrond again.

As to how they end up in the same place, I can merely suppose that after the breaking of the world, Eru 'brings them all back.' All of those who stayed true to him, for the re-made Middle-earth.

And I think that perhaps Aragorn was blessed with a final vision, in which he knew with absolute certainty that he and Arwen would meet again, though they must pass through death to do it.
Author:  Sinbearer [ November 6th, 2007, 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Beautiful....
Well, I think that is a beautiful way of thinking about it Aerandir! We feel the pain of separation in our world when death comes for sure. Death is not nice even though we go through more pain in life than in death.
Author:  Elwing_Star_Spray [ November 6th, 2007, 6:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wow :blink:. You three have had quite the conversation going :). I agree with all of you, in some parts. I agree with what Aerandir said about Arwen and Elrond meeting again. A hundred years is a long time to be away from one's father. Arwen and Elrond did have hundreds of years to them, but they were together for those years.

On the subject of Hobbits and Men, I think it has to do with their mortality. I believe they both go to the Hall Of Mandos until they are returned to Middle-earth, be it a new one, or the same as it always was.
Author:  Firiel [ November 7th, 2007, 10:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm going to confuse everything again...was Arwen distraught at leaving Elrond in the books? Or was that a movie thing? I'm sure she was sad, but she didn't seem to be despairing and, as far as I recall, we only hear about her sorrow in connection with Aragorn's death.
Author:  Aerandir [ November 8th, 2007, 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, it's implied in The Return of the King (the book) that she and Elrond certainly didn't part on good terms, at the least. It was a bitter parting, definitely, though I wouldn't call her 'despairing'.
Author:  Elwing_Star_Spray [ November 8th, 2007, 6:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Aerandir wrote:
Well, it's implied in The Return of the King (the book) that she and Elrond certainly didn't part on good terms, at the least. It was a bitter parting, definitely, though I wouldn't call her 'despairing'.


I hate to confuse everything, as well, but are you saying that they parted bearing ill feelings toward the other? Or that they parted with sadness?
Author:  Aerandir [ November 9th, 2007, 10:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Here's the original quote:

The Return of the King wrote:
None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.
Author:  Elwing_Star_Spray [ November 9th, 2007, 8:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, Aerandir.

To me, that means that their parting wasn't a happy one (obviously), and that they parted knowing that they wouldn't leave for the Undying Lands together.
Page 6 of 7 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/