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i 've always been confused about the history of orcs....
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4530		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Rain-maker [ January 5th, 2006, 7:28 am ]
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in the movie (im talking about the movie only here) it seems to be some kind of evil craft (magic) of sarumans but i havent read the sil so all i know is what ive learned from lotr and the hobbit and it doesnt speak much about them.
Author:  Mrs_Elijah_baggins [ March 20th, 2006, 8:56 am ]
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~*ArwenEvenstar*~ wrote:
Well, as multiple people have said, they were once elves, taken captive by Morgoth, and tortured and mutated until they were orcs. But those were just the orcs in the beginning, and the after that, they would have to be created another way. As for coming out of the ground, Gandalf told Elrond that Saruman was breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard.
Here's the quote:
Gandalf: His treachery runs deeper than you know. By foul craft, Saruman has crossed Orcs with goblin men. He's breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard. An army that can move in sunlight and cover a great distance at speed. Saruman is coming for the Ring.

Hope this helps!! :)


by what foul craft? how did he cross the two? did he get a girl orc and a goblin man to ... well you know.... lol. just kiddin, i guess thats not wot happened but what did?
Author:  Sinbearer [ July 15th, 2006, 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Left to us....
Eä wrote:
And since Tolkien made ongoing changes to his work I think it's up to our own interpretation to understand his world! :angel:


Hear! Hear! When it comes to some to the things that are so scetchy or changeable even in Tolkien's description. I think we are left to make sense of it according to our own understanding of life.
Author:  Eä [ July 20th, 2006, 5:42 pm ]
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Aye, I don't think even Tolkien had the general overview to every single detail in his great work. Ideas he had when he was younger grew and merged with others later on until the created grew independant of its creator.
This fact is one of the things that makes Middle-earth so believable, because we don't know the answer to everything there, just like real life. In fact if we did, I don't think so many people would still debate details of his work every day.

As for the question concerning orcs... in reality do we even want to know how Sauron made the orcs? Or even if we still want to know we might not fully understand it anyway, because we can only perceive things from our own context. Like the whole immortality thing, we can never fully understand it, because of our own mortality.
Author:  Lord Of All [ July 20th, 2006, 5:55 pm ]
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Two points:

"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."
The Silmarillion

Secondly It is unknown what the Orcs were. There is theories of tortured Elves and men, some being Maiar, and even them being created from sludge.

Personally I favour the Elves being Orcs as they fit in perfectly with the War of Powers, however men are certainly a next choice.
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 20th, 2006, 6:13 pm ]
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Well ... before the beginning of the First Age, a great many of the newly formed Elves were captured by Melkor ... then the captured Elves were tortured and mutilated to form Orcs. the orcs were as foul and ugly as the Elves were fair and pure
Author:  tindomerel [ July 21st, 2006, 1:00 pm ]
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Haldir o Lórien wrote:
... then the captured Elves were tortured and mutilated to form Orcs. the orcs were as foul and ugly as the Elves were fair and pure


Agrees with that, and to add to it...remember folks, elves could live forever, essentially. So, the torture process and genetic mutations as it were, could have taken years and years and yet still be possible with the life span of the Elven race.
Author:  Lord Of All [ July 24th, 2006, 5:53 pm ]
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I would also add 2 more ponts:

Firstly the Uruk Hai are not by created by Saruman and are not a cross between Men and Orcs. An 'Uruk' is simply a name for a stronger breed of Orcs. Orcs and Goblins are the same thing therefore Hobgoblins (big ones) and Uruks are the same.

Secondly Orcs were not immortal as are Elves once they were tortured into mutants. They fell ill to disease and had short lives even compared to Men.
Author:  zimoo [ July 28th, 2006, 7:35 pm ]
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Orcs were men, Tolkien stated that late in his life.
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 28th, 2006, 7:43 pm ]
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That is not true ... Orcs are Orcs. They were once Elves.
Author:  zimoo [ July 28th, 2006, 7:45 pm ]
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Orcs are orcs yes that is true, but they were never Elves
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 28th, 2006, 7:57 pm ]
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Yes they were. Read the book properly and come back and post again ;)

In the beginning, they were Elves. Orcs were created from these captured Elves and became their own kind.
Author:  zimoo [ July 28th, 2006, 8:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
For someone who calls themselves a Tolkien Scholar I'd actually try reading the books if I were you.

Quote:
Change that, Orcs are Men.


That was written by Tolkien himself towards the end of his life, yet you tell me to read the books properly. Find me ONE quote in any of his works where it says orcs are elves and I will drop this. I do not mean one of these little quotes that say "The wise believe they were corrupted Elves" or "Treebeard says Elves are Orcs". Find me a quote that can go against the one I posted up there and I will drop this whole subject
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 28th, 2006, 8:08 pm ]
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I'll find one, "zimoo" ... and just a little correction: I didn't call myself a Tolkien Scholar, it's the rank that I am at ;)
Author:  zimoo [ July 28th, 2006, 8:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah I realised that since I posted, my mistake.

Although I eagerly await you searching through all the books only to come out with nothing that can match what I quoted above "Haldir O Lorien"
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 28th, 2006, 8:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
zimoo wrote:
For someone who calls themselves a Tolkien Scholar I'd actually try reading the books if I were you.

Quote:
Change that, Orcs are Men.


That was written by Tolkien himself towards the end of his life, yet you tell me to read the books properly. Find me ONE quote in any of his works where it says orcs are elves and I will drop this. I do not mean one of these little quotes that say "The wise believe they were corrupted Elves" or "Treebeard says Elves are Orcs". Find me a quote that can go against the one I posted up there and I will drop this whole subject

Give me the title of the book and the page number and I'll go over that ... and I'll "erase" my comments above :orly:
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