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i 've always been confused about the history of orcs....
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4530		 Page 3 of 3
Author:  zimoo [ July 28th, 2006, 8:54 pm ]
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Well I can't find that quote I stated earlier (I'm tired) but here is something:

Quote:
A footnote by Ch. Tolkien:
This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.
(History of Middle-earth, Vol.10)


I'll look more thoroughly after I'm rested
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 28th, 2006, 9:03 pm ]
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Okay I get that, but how were the Men able to withstand it? I mean ... it is widely known or assumed that it was the Elves that the Orcs were bred from. The Elves have the gift of immortality that would enable them to become Orcs, right?

And Men were not blessed with immortality, nor did they have a long life. Only the Dunedain did, so how would this be possible? =\
Author:  Lord Of All [ July 29th, 2006, 5:20 am ]
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"It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End".~Morgoth's Ring: Text VIII
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 29th, 2006, 3:37 pm ]
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So ... they are partly originated from Elves and partly from Men?
Author:  zimoo [ July 29th, 2006, 3:52 pm ]
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Quote:
"It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End"


Phrases like "terribly possible" normally indicate that Tolkien himself was unsure, but was leaning a certain way. It doesn't say they definatly originated a bit from Elves though
Author:  Lord Of All [ July 29th, 2006, 4:24 pm ]
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That is the way with alot of Tolkien's works.

If we were to ignore every quote which was not 100% stating its purpose we would be drastically reduce our knowledge of his world.

Here are just a few examples:

We would know nothing about Arda before the Elves were born, as "Its said by the Elves that The Valar raised mountains and Melkor levelled them, The valar delved valleys and Melkor raised them etc". Time before the Elves were born is only known becuase of the Elves account of it, which is not certain.

We do not know what Ungoliant is but we do have the information - ''It is said that she descended from the Darkness that surrounds Ea" - therefore if we ignore this we are ignoring the only source of information we have about Ungoliant.

"And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth..." So if we ignore this we are yet again denying ourselves more lore.

"It is said that in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance..." So if we ignore this we we have to ignore the fact we have come to know that Melkor tried to draw Osse to his service.

"But it is said among the Elves that it lay far off in the east of Middle-earth, and northward, and it was a bay in the Inland Sea of Helcar..." - so therefore if we ignore this we are ignoring the fact that Elves were born in the East of ME.

"And it is said indeed that, even as the Valar made war upon Melkor for the sake of the Quendi..." Again lets ignore this and we must then ignore the fact that the Valar made the Second Great war - the War of Powers, for the sake of the Elves.

"It is said by the Eldar that Men came into the world in the time of the Shadow of Morgoth, and they fell swiftly under his dominion..." Again lets look this and we ignore the fact that men came into the World when there was the shadow of morgoth.

So you see, If we ignore the quote every time it says 'It is said' then we are reducing our knowledge so much that Tolkien's world would be full ofm inaccuracies. It is safe to say that Orcs have at least some Elvish in them but probably more.
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 30th, 2006, 12:28 am ]
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^Good point, Lord of All ... I have to agree with you! ;)
Author:  zimoo [ July 30th, 2006, 6:38 am ]
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While that is true I think we can count those things as fact, unless there is another source with a more convincing answer (i.e. on the orc issue)
Author:  Lord Of All [ July 30th, 2006, 7:18 am ]
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"It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End".
Morgoth's Ring: Text VIII

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."
the Silmarillion

"For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring.And we shall (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons, and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs."
66 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 6 May 1944 (FS 22)

"Trees may 'go bad' as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds."212 Draft of a continuation of the above letter (not sent)

Though none of the above is an absolute 100% knock out I think as these are only a fraction of the total amount of quotes in existance to show Elves are Orcs I think we can safely conclude it.
Author:  Aredhel Ar-Feiniel [ July 30th, 2006, 5:10 pm ]
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I completely agree. Unless you have something better to counter it, zimoo? I can't even find anything better to add to what Lord of all just said :whistle:
Author:  Adanedel [ October 20th, 2006, 12:38 pm ]
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I have read in The Sillmarilion that when The Valar created the elves, Melkor(or Morgoth as we know him better)made his own kind of creatures to serve him and oppose the new race.But I haven't seen or read anywhere that the orcs were tortured and converted elves.I may have missed something but I think that with the tortures and etc. was made for the movie bu PJ.
Author:  Adanedel [ October 20th, 2006, 12:52 pm ]
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Oh I must have missed that part :(. It's really pity:
"Yet this is held true by the hand of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi (Elves) who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utonno was broken, were put there in prison and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs iin envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were aferwards the betterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the maner of the Children of Ilivatar; and naught that had life of it's own nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make sice his rebellion in Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep inside their hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkpr, and the most hateful to Iluvatar."
It was really terrible for me when I read this. Damn you Melkor!! :(
Author:  Lord Of All [ October 20th, 2006, 1:47 pm ]
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Yes indeed Melkor could not make anything of his own unlike the other Ainur which could distribute there own self into bodies they make (for example Aule made the Dwarves by spreading his own being into them. Only after the Dwarves came into true existance did they have beings of there own other than Aule's).
For some reason Melkor was denied that power.

Don't confuse this with making proper beings however. Only Eru could do that by using the Flame Imperishable.
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