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Why didn't Arwen sailed over?
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6568		 Page 4 of 7
Author:  zimoo [ July 29th, 2006, 8:13 am ]
Post subject: 
He became King before he married Arwen
Author:  Eä [ August 4th, 2006, 7:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Telpeath wrote:
Why are you against it? Dont worry, we support your desision. I just want to know why?

*smiles* It's alright, I don't mind answering.. but I'm not sure I can explain it so it makes sense.
Basically I think it's because it appears wierd to me that... well, that (some) elves would be reincarnated after they died... In my head people stay dead when they are dead.. or at least they should in Middle-earth. Perhaps because I find it colliding with the whole immortality concept... when an immortal being dies it is somehow even worse than when a mortal dies, because it was not meant to be, not natural for their race. And then they can't come running back from the Halls of Mandos to get another shot...
The strange thing is that I don't have a problem with the idea of reincarnation in Buddhism or Hinduism... but here.. it just doesn't fit into the picture I got... I'm sorry I can't explain it more...


Will wrote:
I wondered what would have happened if Arwen did sail over, abandoning aragorn. (Of course I know this didn't happen and Arwen is supposed to be with Aragorn but I was still curious)

I think Aragorn would never have claimed the throne of Gondor and would have dwelled in grief just like Arwen did after his death..

Or Aragorn might still have acknowledged his responsability and put his own needs and feelings aside for the good of the people who relied on him and trusted him. He is the Heir of Isildur and throughout the story he grows more and more into that role. The more he accomplishes the close he gets to the throne. He does it for Arwen but I also think he does it for the sake of the free peoples of Middle-earth who he can't let down.
Author:  Dumanyu [ September 3rd, 2006, 1:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Aerandir wrote:
She didn't sail over because she chose to stay with Aragorn, and after he died, I think she chose to stay and die also, instead of going to where others live in eternal bliss and she would be heartbroken.


I think you nailed it there. Arwen was devestated upon Aragorns death, and to live forever would just make her life impossible to bear. I believe she could have gone to the undying lands, but if faced with her situation, would you go? I wouldn't.
Author:  Larael [ October 3rd, 2006, 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Arwen's choice can be applied to many aspects of our life today. We make decisions like hers at least one time in our life. Though it may not be a life or death decision you may have to make the choice between what you believe and what others want you to do.

Just think of what would have happened if she had left for the Undying Lands. Both Aragorn and Arwen would have to live with the wonderings of what fate the other befell. If you I were madly in love like that, I'd die. I can't even imagine what that would feel like.
Author:  Dumanyu [ October 3rd, 2006, 9:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just think of what would have happened if she had left for the Undying Lands. Both Aragorn and Arwen would have to live with the wonderings of what fate the other befell. If you I were madly in love like that, I'd die. I can't even imagine what that would feel like.[/color][/quote]

Very good! I know somewhat of what it's like, and it is a cross I've had to bear my whole life, even now 20+ years later.
Author:  Frodos-Guide [ October 12th, 2006, 11:50 am ]
Post subject: 
As she states in the movies for her love for Aragorn of course! And the fact that she knew she would have a son to him!

'I would rather spend one lifetime with you, than an eternity alone' I think that just about sums it up, love. lol.
Author:  Frodos-Guide [ October 12th, 2006, 11:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Dumanyu wrote:
Just think of what would have happened if she had left for the Undying Lands. Both Aragorn and Arwen would have to live with the wonderings of what fate the other befell. If you I were madly in love like that, I'd die. I can't even imagine what that would feel like.[/color]


I think Aragorn would have fallen in love with Eowyn.
Author:  Dumanyu [ October 12th, 2006, 8:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Frodos-Guide wrote:
Dumanyu wrote:
Just think of what would have happened if she had left for the Undying Lands. Both Aragorn and Arwen would have to live with the wonderings of what fate the other befell. If you I were madly in love like that, I'd die. I can't even imagine what that would feel like.[/color]


I think Aragorn would have fallen in love with Eowyn.


I disagree with that!! Aragorn probably would have spent his life alone, which would have been bad for the Kingdom, as there would have been no heir.
Author:  Frodos-Guide [ October 13th, 2006, 10:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Why do you think that? Ye she clearly tells Eowyn that he cannot give her what she seeks etc. But there is no saying that he would not have eventually fallen in love with her. There are many people who believe that Eowyn would have been far better suited to Aragorn, i myself am one of those believers, although i do believe Arwen and Aragorn are great too together.
Author:  Fool of a Took [ May 21st, 2007, 4:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
I believe Arwen did not sail over into the west because she knew that if the Ring was destroyed and Aragorn was still alive he would finally take the throne that was right for him.
Therefore, she stayed in Middle-Earth knowing what her fate would be.[Old age.] True love has also played a part in why she stayed also.
And as it has been said before it is not certain that Gimli was accepted in the Undying Lands. This is because Gimli was a dwarf and we all know of the rivalry between the races of Elves and Dwarves.
Author:  Fool of a Took [ May 28th, 2007, 11:24 am ]
Post subject: 
=] No worries! I think you explained it well, love.
Author:  evenstarelfe [ June 22nd, 2007, 4:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Idril Falastári wrote:
I agree - she made the choice to be mortal, and when she became mortal, even if there were all the Elven ships in the world to take her, she could not have gone.

i agree also. she decided to stay with aragorn and die in me. i think that even if she could go to valinor although she choose to be mortal she wouldn't. i agree with all of you who say that she had this one chance to decide, and that once she has she couldn't reverse it. that is why this decision was hard to make.
Author:  Sinbearer [ November 5th, 2007, 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  The main lesson.....
Eä wrote:
...Basically I think it's because it appears wierd to me that... well, that (some) elves would be reincarnated after they died... In my head people stay dead when they are dead.. or at least they should in Middle-earth. Perhaps because I find it colliding with the whole immortality concept... when an immortal being dies it is somehow even worse than when a mortal dies, because it was not meant to be, not natural for their race. And then they can't come running back from the Halls of Mandos to get another shot...
The strange thing is that I don't have a problem with the idea of reincarnation in Buddhism or Hinduism... but here.. it just doesn't fit into the picture I got... I'm sorry I can't explain it more...


Tolkien may have included reincarnation in his story of the elves but I don't feel that he was making a theological statement by doing that. I think the greatest lesson the Elves bring to us is what a blessing death is for men in a dark fallen world. Mortality is not shown as being undesirable in comparison with immortality—whereas mortal men are "doomed to die", elves are "doomed not to die", not, at any rate, until the earth itself ends. There are certainly other lessons for us to learn from the elves but that death in this world is a both a gift of freedom and a gift of God is at the top.

As far as reincarnation and resurrection? I believe the concepts are mutually exclusive at the bottom line. You cannot logical hold BOTH to be true.

Aragorn certainly hinted at a resurrection in his last words to Arwen as he died. "....and beyond them is MORE than memory. Farewell!" More than memory? In order to have a memory of each other they must be resurrected from death as the same people or there would be no recognition or continuing on of their relationship. And the human experience involves more than a mind meld. It also involves an intense craving for physical touch so I believe for that relationship to be meaningful and to embrace and be even more than memory, it must be physical to. ie a physical resurrection. (regardless of our extrapolations on the final lot of the elves at world's end)

Elves are not humans but they are included in Tolkien's tale to teach us something about humans. After all, in our world, humans are everywhere but it is awfully hard to find elves! (I am so glad they exist in our immaginations though!)
Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 6:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Aerlinniel Leryanëlyën wrote:
Darrell wrote:
There is something I feel I have to clear up before I put my opinion on this subject. Arwen was not Half-elven!!!!! Her mother was an Elf, and her father was an Elf by choice. Therefore, Arwen was a FULL BLOODED ELF. *breathes deeply* Sorry about that :(

*cough* *sputter* :confused:
Ehm...I disagree. It's for sure there've been more half-Elven people in M.E. (like Imrahil's ancestors ) and we don't know if they had a choice or not. That's got to do with genes, and Tolkien didn't explain that completely.
But Elrond & family is another case. They didn't have a choice ONLY because they were Half-Elven. And, technically, Elrond wasn't even half-Elven since BOTH of his parents, Elwing and Earendil, chose to be Elves. So he was technically a full Elf. But he and his brother had the choice to be Elven/Human since Earendil, their father, had a choice because of saving the Noldor Edain. That's why they're still called half-Elven. I don't know why Elros' children didn't have a choice, but maybe his direct descendents had. Just not when they were another generation of mingling with "normal humans" further.
So Arwen's half-Elven, methinks. Not technically, but because she did have a choice.

And I'm sorry to say this...but I think the idea of Aragorn falling in love with Eowyn after Arwen had sailed away is a bit ridiculous, sorry.
If Arwen+Aragorn was true love...you don't just "get over it"
Maybe he would eventually have married since the Kingdom needed a heir and it was his responsibility, but I don't even think he'd do that. The kingdom would probably pass on to another Dunadan who was related to the old Kings.

Sorry if I offended anyone. :P


Well, I don't want to inadvertently move the discussion about why Elrond and Elros got to choose over to here, but I just thought I'd mention that Eärendil and Eldarion were really only two 'half' elves of Edain descent--Beren&Lúthien, Tuor&Idril, and Aragorn&Arwen were the only three unions of Elves and Edain, according to...either The Unfinished Tales or The Silmarillion, I think. Or the appendices.

Anyway, Dior Aranel wasn't truly half-elven, as he had a mixture of Edain, Sindarin, and Maiar blood in him.

I definitely have to agree with you, though, on the point of Éowyn, Aerlinn--I consider it highly improbable that Aragorn would fall in love with her. He was in love with Arwen, and that was it. No, I don't doubt that he had some affection for Éowyn, but I don't think it was much more than that, nor likely to progress beyond that if Arwen had sailed to Valinor.

Sinbearer, I like that point (resurrection and reincarnation). Of course, it is made someone invalid, as it deals with immortal elves, as opposed to Aragorn, a mortal. It's my opinion that he and Arwen could only be reunited after death after the Dagor Dagorath, since I don't get the impression from reading LotR that Arwen gave up her immortality--she chose to stay with Aragorn in that lifetime. I don't doubt that she died afterward, but by all rights, she'd go to the Halls of Mandos, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world, as Men do.

That's something I'll have to think about.
Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 9:57 am ]
Post subject: 
The keyword there was 'Edain', Aerlinniel. There are only three instances of one of the Edain marrying an elf.

And I don't recall (right now, at least) any instance that implied that Arwen did anything other than remain behind. Perhaps you're thinking of the movie, since it showed it as her giving up her immortal life.
Author:  Sinbearer [ November 6th, 2007, 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  More than a memory....
Aerandir wrote:
Sinbearer, I like that point (resurrection and reincarnation). Of course, it is made someone invalid, as it deals with immortal elves, as opposed to Aragorn, a mortal. It's my opinion that he and Arwen could only be reunited after death after the Dagor Dagorath, since I don't get the impression from reading LotR that Arwen gave up her immortality--she chose to stay with Aragorn in that lifetime. I don't doubt that she died afterward, but by all rights, she'd go to the Halls of Mandos, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world, as Men do.

That's something I'll have to think about.


I am in deep waters here for me but I just feel that if you look at Aragorn's dying words logically, they prophetically predict a place somewhere sometime where Arwen and he would be together again...with the same souls and the same bodies. Otherwise the experience would certainly not be more than the memories they shared together.
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