Why didn't Arwen sailed over?
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Author:  Dumanyu [ October 12th, 2006, 8:46 pm ]
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Frodos-Guide wrote:
Dumanyu wrote:
Just think of what would have happened if she had left for the Undying Lands. Both Aragorn and Arwen would have to live with the wonderings of what fate the other befell. If you I were madly in love like that, I'd die. I can't even imagine what that would feel like.[/color]

I think Aragorn would have fallen in love with Eowyn.

I disagree with that!! Aragorn probably would have spent his life alone, which would have been bad for the Kingdom, as there would have been no heir.

Author:  Frodos-Guide [ October 13th, 2006, 10:36 am ]
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Why do you think that? Ye she clearly tells Eowyn that he cannot give her what she seeks etc. But there is no saying that he would not have eventually fallen in love with her. There are many people who believe that Eowyn would have been far better suited to Aragorn, i myself am one of those believers, although i do believe Arwen and Aragorn are great too together.

Author:  Fool of a Took [ May 21st, 2007, 4:56 pm ]
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I believe Arwen did not sail over into the west because she knew that if the Ring was destroyed and Aragorn was still alive he would finally take the throne that was right for him.
Therefore, she stayed in Middle-Earth knowing what her fate would be.[Old age.] True love has also played a part in why she stayed also.
And as it has been said before it is not certain that Gimli was accepted in the Undying Lands. This is because Gimli was a dwarf and we all know of the rivalry between the races of Elves and Dwarves.

Author:  Fool of a Took [ May 28th, 2007, 11:24 am ]
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=] No worries! I think you explained it well, love.

Author:  evenstarelfe [ June 22nd, 2007, 4:35 am ]
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Idril Falastári wrote:
I agree - she made the choice to be mortal, and when she became mortal, even if there were all the Elven ships in the world to take her, she could not have gone.

i agree also. she decided to stay with aragorn and die in me. i think that even if she could go to valinor although she choose to be mortal she wouldn't. i agree with all of you who say that she had this one chance to decide, and that once she has she couldn't reverse it. that is why this decision was hard to make.

Author:  Sinbearer [ November 5th, 2007, 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  The main lesson.....

Eä wrote:
...Basically I think it's because it appears wierd to me that... well, that (some) elves would be reincarnated after they died... In my head people stay dead when they are dead.. or at least they should in Middle-earth. Perhaps because I find it colliding with the whole immortality concept... when an immortal being dies it is somehow even worse than when a mortal dies, because it was not meant to be, not natural for their race. And then they can't come running back from the Halls of Mandos to get another shot...
The strange thing is that I don't have a problem with the idea of reincarnation in Buddhism or Hinduism... but here.. it just doesn't fit into the picture I got... I'm sorry I can't explain it more...

Tolkien may have included reincarnation in his story of the elves but I don't feel that he was making a theological statement by doing that. I think the greatest lesson the Elves bring to us is what a blessing death is for men in a dark fallen world. Mortality is not shown as being undesirable in comparison with immortality—whereas mortal men are "doomed to die", elves are "doomed not to die", not, at any rate, until the earth itself ends. There are certainly other lessons for us to learn from the elves but that death in this world is a both a gift of freedom and a gift of God is at the top.

As far as reincarnation and resurrection? I believe the concepts are mutually exclusive at the bottom line. You cannot logical hold BOTH to be true.

Aragorn certainly hinted at a resurrection in his last words to Arwen as he died. "....and beyond them is MORE than memory. Farewell!" More than memory? In order to have a memory of each other they must be resurrected from death as the same people or there would be no recognition or continuing on of their relationship. And the human experience involves more than a mind meld. It also involves an intense craving for physical touch so I believe for that relationship to be meaningful and to embrace and be even more than memory, it must be physical to. ie a physical resurrection. (regardless of our extrapolations on the final lot of the elves at world's end)

Elves are not humans but they are included in Tolkien's tale to teach us something about humans. After all, in our world, humans are everywhere but it is awfully hard to find elves! (I am so glad they exist in our immaginations though!)

Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 6:28 am ]
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Aerlinniel Leryanëlyën wrote:
Darrell wrote:
There is something I feel I have to clear up before I put my opinion on this subject. Arwen was not Half-elven!!!!! Her mother was an Elf, and her father was an Elf by choice. Therefore, Arwen was a FULL BLOODED ELF. *breathes deeply* Sorry about that :(

*cough* *sputter* :confused:
Ehm...I disagree. It's for sure there've been more half-Elven people in M.E. (like Imrahil's ancestors ) and we don't know if they had a choice or not. That's got to do with genes, and Tolkien didn't explain that completely.
But Elrond & family is another case. They didn't have a choice ONLY because they were Half-Elven. And, technically, Elrond wasn't even half-Elven since BOTH of his parents, Elwing and Earendil, chose to be Elves. So he was technically a full Elf. But he and his brother had the choice to be Elven/Human since Earendil, their father, had a choice because of saving the Noldor Edain. That's why they're still called half-Elven. I don't know why Elros' children didn't have a choice, but maybe his direct descendents had. Just not when they were another generation of mingling with "normal humans" further.
So Arwen's half-Elven, methinks. Not technically, but because she did have a choice.

And I'm sorry to say this...but I think the idea of Aragorn falling in love with Eowyn after Arwen had sailed away is a bit ridiculous, sorry.
If Arwen+Aragorn was true don't just "get over it"
Maybe he would eventually have married since the Kingdom needed a heir and it was his responsibility, but I don't even think he'd do that. The kingdom would probably pass on to another Dunadan who was related to the old Kings.

Sorry if I offended anyone. :P

Well, I don't want to inadvertently move the discussion about why Elrond and Elros got to choose over to here, but I just thought I'd mention that Eärendil and Eldarion were really only two 'half' elves of Edain descent--Beren&Lúthien, Tuor&Idril, and Aragorn&Arwen were the only three unions of Elves and Edain, according to...either The Unfinished Tales or The Silmarillion, I think. Or the appendices.

Anyway, Dior Aranel wasn't truly half-elven, as he had a mixture of Edain, Sindarin, and Maiar blood in him.

I definitely have to agree with you, though, on the point of Éowyn, Aerlinn--I consider it highly improbable that Aragorn would fall in love with her. He was in love with Arwen, and that was it. No, I don't doubt that he had some affection for Éowyn, but I don't think it was much more than that, nor likely to progress beyond that if Arwen had sailed to Valinor.

Sinbearer, I like that point (resurrection and reincarnation). Of course, it is made someone invalid, as it deals with immortal elves, as opposed to Aragorn, a mortal. It's my opinion that he and Arwen could only be reunited after death after the Dagor Dagorath, since I don't get the impression from reading LotR that Arwen gave up her immortality--she chose to stay with Aragorn in that lifetime. I don't doubt that she died afterward, but by all rights, she'd go to the Halls of Mandos, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world, as Men do.

That's something I'll have to think about.

Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 9:57 am ]
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The keyword there was 'Edain', Aerlinniel. There are only three instances of one of the Edain marrying an elf.

And I don't recall (right now, at least) any instance that implied that Arwen did anything other than remain behind. Perhaps you're thinking of the movie, since it showed it as her giving up her immortal life.

Author:  Sinbearer [ November 6th, 2007, 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  More than a memory....

Aerandir wrote:
Sinbearer, I like that point (resurrection and reincarnation). Of course, it is made someone invalid, as it deals with immortal elves, as opposed to Aragorn, a mortal. It's my opinion that he and Arwen could only be reunited after death after the Dagor Dagorath, since I don't get the impression from reading LotR that Arwen gave up her immortality--she chose to stay with Aragorn in that lifetime. I don't doubt that she died afterward, but by all rights, she'd go to the Halls of Mandos, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world, as Men do.

That's something I'll have to think about.

I am in deep waters here for me but I just feel that if you look at Aragorn's dying words logically, they prophetically predict a place somewhere sometime where Arwen and he would be together again...with the same souls and the same bodies. Otherwise the experience would certainly not be more than the memories they shared together.

Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 11:35 am ]
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I missed that bit about Mithrellas, sorry. That does put a cramp in my comment, yet--can you name a third case of a Noldorin Elf marrying an Edain?

See, I knew there were three cases, involving Edain and Elves. I thought that perhaps it was merely three cases of Edain and Noldorin, yet who'd be the third Noldorin elf?

(it's an interesting thing that in all of the unions, the guys are all human, whereas the females are the elves. Never vice-versa, to my knowledge)

Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 11:47 am ]
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Yes, but there's the problem--the men are all Edain, sure, but Lúthien isn't fully Elvish, though she's still commonly classified as one. However, she was not Noldorin. Thingol was Teleri, or Sindarin at best. Not Noldorin.

So there were no three unions of Edain and Noldorin.

Though perhaps Tolkien contradicted himself in this situation.

Author:  Aerandir [ November 6th, 2007, 12:05 pm ]
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I'm pretty sure as well. Not that I know much about the two of them, besides the fact that Aegnor has one of the coolest names that Tolkien came up with.

Author:  Guard of the Citadel [ December 15th, 2007, 1:16 pm ]
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WOW! I just read this thread for the first time, being new to the board. You guys just blew my mind. If I understand you correctly, you are basically saying that Arwen essentially gave up nothing then to stay with Aragorn, for she is still immortal. Now, let me state for the record that I am NOT an expert on Elves as all of you appear to be, okay? But I have read the triology a lot. When Aragorn dies, she states that she cannot go to the Undying Lands (she has given that as a gift to Frodo to remain with Aragorn) and she retreats to Lorien and lays herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth. Yet, according to you, she still has immortality. If that is so, then why was the parting with Elrond so grievous? He would be seeing her again. And what "sacrifice" did she make to remain in Middle-Earth with Aragorn? In my "simple" eyes, she didn't if she still retains her elvish immortality. I thought that was the "price" she paid in order to have a life with Aragorn, which grieved Elrond so.

Am I just stupid?

Author:  Sinbearer [ December 15th, 2007, 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  I think not!

Stupid? I think not! Those are some very clear questions that most certainly need answers that fit the facts you have brought up. The answers are very important because they have to do with the nature of love and relationships.

In behaving as Arwen did in the face of the far reaching consequences she gives us a breathtaking example of what love really is. Not only did she give up her family but she chose the crushing death of a broken heart in exchange for immortality! But what does it say about love if she can have her cake and eat it too? Even if she could have potentially lived with Aragorn for all his life, and then elected to, as Aragorn says, "repent and go to the Havens" (reclaim her immortality), what would that say about their love? Aragorn would have never been more than a distraction—an experiment to while away just a fraction of her spectacular lifespan. The extent of her love for him shines bright only in the face of what she gives up.

There is a lot more I could say about the dynamic and far reaching ramifications of this that I cannot say here.

But did she give up as much as it seems? What is life without true love? It is not the quantity of either that really matters, it is the quality.

Author:  ~Elfin Maiden~ [ December 16th, 2007, 10:16 am ]
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I'll jump into this discussion and try to give IMHO what I feel happened to Arwen at her death. First of all Tolkien loved to reprise his themes, thus we have the love story of Beren (mortal) and Luthien (immortal), than Aragorn (mortal) and Arwen (immortal). I think we all can agree on this fact that both Beren and Aragorn both men and mortal fell head-over-heels in love with elvin maidens Luthien and Arwen who were immortal. :yes: Each of the fair-maidens fathers though, felt very strongly against their daughters marrying theses men even though they both were of sterling qualities and not the run-of-the-mill humans. :-D

We all know how the love story of Beren and Luthien ended. Mandos, moved to pity by Luthien's songappealed to Manwe, on their behalf etc...and Luthien was given a choice to either dwell in Valinor forever--but without Beren, or she could become mortal and return with Beren to Middle-earth. She choose a brief life of a mortal with limited happiness but shared with her true love. They settled on Tol Galan, the Green Isle, in Ossiriand and lived happily in their love until the end of their days. Thus she died, not going to the Halls of Mandos. At that time Luthien became the only Elf to die and leave the confines of the world, her choice of mortality forever joined the two children of Iluvatar, the immortal Elves and mortal Men.

We now come to the love story of Aragorn-Isildur's sole heir to Arnor and Gondor, and Arwen, the only daughter of Elrond, master of Rivendell-reprising the love story of their ancestors Beren and Luthien. I find it very interesting how Aragorn and Arwen's story refers back at times to that of Beren and Luthien's story. You almost have to know Beren's and Luthien's story to make full sense of Aragorn's and Arwen's.

In the LOTR, Aragorn sings part of a song of Luthien Tinuviel, a song that tells of the initial meeting of Beren and Luthien in the glade in the forest of Neldoreth. And rhis is precisely how Aragorn first met Arwen. The day after Elrond revels to Aragorn his true, royal ancestry, Aragorn is walking by homself at sunset in the woods around Rivendell, singing (you guesses it :-D ) the Lay of Luthien when, it seemed, Luthien herself appears before him. Aragorn actuall calls out to her and uses the nams, Tinuviel that Beren used when he first laid eyes on Luthien. Arwen explains that she's often compared to Luthien, though she doesn't yet revel Luthien as her ancester. She tells Aragorn that she is not Tinuviel, but that she may yet share her fate.[u]

Both Aragorn and Arwen's family members, Gilraen, Aragorn's mother and Elrond, Arwen's father try to discourage them from falling in love.

Elrond has a special reason for not wanting Arwen not to marry Aragorn, a mortal and, perhaps become one herself. He himself was the child of a marriage between an Elf-princess and a mortal (Elwing & Earendil) and as a consequence he lost both his parents and his twin-brother, Elros, to human mortality. Elrond and Elros both were given the choice which fate thet wanted: mortal human or immortal elf. Only Elrond choose immortality and was thus permanently seperated from his family. If Arwen chooses mortality to marry Aragorn, Elrond will loose his only daughter in exactly the same way. She chooses a mortal live and marries her true love Aragorn.

Aragorn and Arwen live as happily as they can as mere mortals. It is only when Aragorn at last comes to the end of his days and lays down his life that Arwen feels the full impact of her choice of a mortal life and the human bitterness over death and realizes exactly what she has sacrificed for the love of her life, for she realizes that there is no ship that would bear her hence to the Undying Lands and that she will indeed abide the Doom of Men. Arwen in great sorrow returns to Lothlorien only to find it deserted -- Galadriel and Elrond have left for the Undying Lands. There in Lothlorien, she faces her utter loneliness and lies down to die on the green hill of Cerin Amroth, where she and Aragorn first pledged their love.

So just as Luthien died as a mortal, so did Arwen. They had accepted the 'special gift' that the creator Eru Iluvatar had bestowed on humankind. They died, they did not go on living in another world, so to speak. That is why Men felt that the Firstborn, Elves, who recieved immortality got the greater gift, immortality.

So in my books, Arwen died, no after-life!! ;)

Author:  Guard of the Citadel [ December 17th, 2007, 1:08 am ]
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Hmmmm....not sure if I am being called stupid or not being called stupid but that really doesn't matter anyway. :) As I stated, I'm not an expert on Elves and I don't know about this "Halls of Mandos" that you are referring to. I would assume that anything that had to do with the Elves would naturally not be associated with Middle-Earth, otherwise Arwen would have retreated there (Lorien being the closest she could get to it at the time); thus these "Halls" would be in the Undying Lands? If so, she plainly told Aragorn that "there was now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men." And even earlier in the tale, when Elrond learned of the choice of his daughter, "he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure." Later, when speaking to Aragorn he said: "Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending." Therefore, what is the Doom of Men that they are referring to?

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