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PostPosted: December 17th, 2007, 7:55 am 
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Aerlinniel Leryanëlyën wrote:
~Elfin Maiden~ wrote:
Elrond has a special reason for not wanting Arwen not to marry Aragorn, a mortal and, perhaps become one herself. He himself was the child of a marriage between an Elf-princess and a mortal (Elwing & Earendil) and as a consequence he lost both his parents and his twin-brother, Elros, to human mortality.


[quote="Aerlinniel Leryanëlyën"][...not true. Elros was the only one who truly became mortal - Elwing and Earendil chose to be Elves, and never died a mortal death. In fact, during LOTR, they're still alive; "Earendil's star" aka Earendil himself with the Silmaril, still shines on Middle Earth. And Elwing doesn't die either, since they both chose immortality.


As I wrote it you are correct, I should have made myself more clear I guess. :blush: To Earendil and Elwing and their sons Elrond and Elros, the Valar offered the choice of which kindred to be associated with: mortal men or immortal Elves. Elwing decided to be judged as one of the Eldar (immortal) and Earendil joined in this fate for her sake. Thus Elrond's parents are destined forever to fly through the heavens carrying the Silmaril as a symbol of hope. Elros chooses to become a mortal man reigning as the first king of Nunenor and after living 500 years dies, while Elrond decides to join the Elven-kind.

Thus Elrond DOES in a sense loose both his parents and brother never to see them again, a fate he doesn't want for his daughter. This is the consequences of marriage between a mortal and an immortal, a-no-win-solution I guess you might say.:(

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PostPosted: December 17th, 2007, 9:41 am 
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Yay! Interesting. Though I'm not sure I agree with the whole 'Blame Aerandir' thing. :P

Guard of the Citadel wrote:
Therefore, what is the Doom of Men that they are referring to?


It is probably the single greatest difference between Elves and Men--their dooms are different. Now, in this sense, "Doom" is not necessarily negative. It could be replaced by "Fate". It is the fate/doom of the Elves to be immortal and not die, even when their physical bodies are destroyed, though Aerlinniel, having read more of the HoME than I have, should be able to elaborate more. Anyways, that's the Elves' doom. It seems great to us, but they grow weary of the world after a while.

The Doom of Men is Ilúvatar's gift to them--they are mortal. When their physical bodies die, their spirits go beyond the circles of the world, though no mortals (or Elves) know where--I think actually that Tolkien mentioned that only Mandos and Ilúvatar know. Maybe Manwë, too.

What that means, though, is that the Elves have that which men want--immortal life. Men find their lives too brief. On the other side, though, the Men have what the Elves want--a chance to permanently escape from Arda, or at least, escape until the Dagor Dagorath.

Gah. It's been a while since I went through this topic, so I'm gonna have to read the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn again, just to refresh my opinion and answer you satisfactorily, GotC. :)

Elfin Maiden, I think that Eärendil actually stayed in Aman/Valinor during the day, in which case, Elrond would be reunited with his parents when he went there, though he would only see them during the day.

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PostPosted: December 17th, 2007, 10:10 pm 
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I love the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, hehe!

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PostPosted: December 18th, 2007, 9:50 am 
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Aerandir wrote:
Elfin Maiden, I think that Eärendil actually stayed in Aman/Valinor during the day, in which case, Elrond would be reunited with his parents when he went there, though he would only see them during the day.


It's not that I'm challanging what you wrote Aerandir, I just still feel that as I see how this account was written Elrond will never see his parents because when Earendil went first to Valinor to ask for aid he was summoned to the Valar and he spoke before them of his errand; pity for the Noldor and their great sorrow and mercy upon the two kindred's; Elves and Men. But neither he or Elwing could return to the mortal lands and they had to chose under which law they would be judged, Eärendil asked Elwing to choose and she chose the Firstborns law. The ship Vingilot was hallowed and brought to the Door of Night where now the greatest mariner ever sail among the stars with the Silmaril upon his brow and can be seen in morning and evening as Eärendil travels in the ocean of the heavens.
As to Elwing, a white tower was built for her and when Earendil would fly near from his journeys she would joyously fly to meet him in the shape of a white bird at his return, pg.250 of the Silmarillion. Never does it say they both landed at Valinor.

Now since Earendil is on guard duty so to speak at the Door of Night, defination: A guarded portal in the distant West of the World, through which Morgoth was cast after his defeat in the War of Wrath. Its origins are unclear: according to some accounts, it was made by the Valar as a passage for the Sun, which would return into the World through the Gates of Morning in the east. According to others, though, it was made expressly as a gateway through which to expel Morgoth. The Door of Night was guarded by Eärendil, bearing his Silmaril aloft in his shining ship Vingilot.(The Encyclopedia of Arda) He is on constant guard duty while at the sametime only one Silmaril remains visible in the World, bound to Eärendil's brow as he sails the heavens with the Morning and Evening Star.


I found this photo by Robert Garland entitled: Earendil and Elwing. Here Elwing is depicted as flying to meet Earendil.

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PostPosted: December 19th, 2007, 12:25 am 
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Aerandir wrote:
Yay! Interesting. Though I'm not sure I agree with the whole 'Blame Aerandir' thing. :P

Guard of the Citadel wrote:
Therefore, what is the Doom of Men that they are referring to?


The Doom of Men is Ilúvatar's gift to them--they are mortal.

What that means, though, is that the Elves have that which men want--immortal life.


Okay, maybe I AM being too simple here, but according to what you've written and according to what Arwen said to Aragorn "there was now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men", then Arwen chose mortality to be with Aragorn and gave up the immortal life of the Elves.

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PostPosted: December 19th, 2007, 8:17 am 
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Guard of the Citadel wrote:
Aerandir wrote:
Yay! Interesting. Though I'm not sure I agree with the whole 'Blame Aerandir' thing. :P

Guard of the Citadel wrote:
Therefore, what is the Doom of Men that they are referring to?


The Doom of Men is Ilúvatar's gift to them--they are mortal.

What that means, though, is that the Elves have that which men want--immortal life.


Okay, maybe I AM being too simple here, but according to what you've written and according to what Arwen said to Aragorn "there was now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men", then Arwen chose mortality to be with Aragorn and gave up the immortal life of the Elves.


GotC, I agree with you. In their origins, Elves and Men were given two separate and different fates: the Elves were 'immortal', or at least they remained in the World for the long millennia until its end. Men, though, were made mortal, and after a few short decades they would leave the World and pass out of the knowledge of Valar and Elves alike. This was not at first seen as a fearful thing, and the idea of death was referred to as the Gift of Men, to be accepted freely by each at the proper time.

As the shadow of Morgoth spread darkness throughout Middle-earth, so Men came to see death not as a Gift, but as a thing to be feared or even - if it were possible - escaped. After this time, it became known as the Doom of Men. The Númenóreans, despite their long lives, showed a particular fear of their fate, clinging to life until its last moments, and housing their preserved dead in great tombs. At last, driven on by Sauron, King Ar-Pharazôn led an immense army in an attempt to wrest the Undying Lands from the Valar, and achieve their unending life for himself. His hopeless quest for immortality brought its opposite to his people: Númenor was utterly destroyed, and the Doom of Men was visited upon all its inhabitants.

So just as Luthien died as a mortal, so did Arwen. They had accepted the 'special gift' or the Doom of Men that the creator Eru Iluvatar had bestowed on humankind. They died, they did not go on living in another world, so to speak. That is why Men felt that the Firstborn, Elves, who recieved immortality got the greater gift, immortality.

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PostPosted: December 19th, 2007, 3:01 pm 
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Tbh, I kind of wonder if this might not actually be a self-contradiction by Tolkien that escaped notice. I still haven't gotten to the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (I'm actually in "Mount Doom" right now), so it'll be a little while, since I don't like skipping ahead even though this is my twenty-fifth time through it.

That line from the Tale does seem to back up the idea that Arwen gave up her immortality completely, as do a few other lines in RotK, yet there's this to wonder--why would she be able to make that choice? Elrond and Elros were both given the choice between the Elder and Younger children, yet Elros' son did not make a choice (that we know of) as to which kindred he used to be, so why would it be different with Elrond's children? There are other passages that I'll have to find to support that, too, but I'm somewhat wondering whether or not it will be like the Balrog-wings debate.

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PostPosted: December 19th, 2007, 10:36 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
Tbh, I kind of wonder if this might not actually be a self-contradiction by Tolkien that escaped notice. I still haven't gotten to the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (I'm actually in "Mount Doom" right now), so it'll be a little while, since I don't like skipping ahead even though this is my twenty-fifth time through it.

That line from the Tale does seem to back up the idea that Arwen gave up her immortality completely, as do a few other lines in RotK, yet there's this to wonder--why would she be able to make that choice? Elrond and Elros were both given the choice between the Elder and Younger children, yet Elros' son did not make a choice (that we know of) as to which kindred he used to be, so why would it be different with Elrond's children? There are other passages that I'll have to find to support that, too, but I'm somewhat wondering whether or not it will be like the Balrog-wings debate.


Balrog-wings debate????

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 12:59 am 
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Um.....dito Guard of the Citadel. When did we have a Balrog-wings debate? That sounds a little humorous.

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 1:36 am 
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Well, it's just an apt name for the debate about whether or not Balrogs had wings, which is, in my opinion, unresolvable.

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 1:41 am 
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Wow, I'm sorry, I don't remember ever reading that Balrog's had wings. That's interesting. Anyways, back to subject....hehe

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 1:48 am 
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http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=158 <--there's the debate.

Um, it's implied in several places that balrogs had wings, both in LotR and in The Silmarillion, but in other places it doesn't seem as though they really could have had them.

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 4:10 pm 
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Some have taken this passage with Gandalf facing the Balrog in Khazad-dum literaly: 'His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.' but this was Gandalf's take on what he saw. Notice the wording, 'like two wings', not that it had two wings!!!!


If we look at the movie Balrog it certainly had wings. And the art work of John Howe illustrator working along with Alan Lee on the LOTR movies, it had wings.

Do Balrogs have wings? It might seem a simple question, but (as so often with Tolkien's work) the more we examine it, the harder it is to answer. It's a question, too, that divides Tolkien's more avid readers into two distinct camps - those who believe in Balrog wings, and those who deny their existence. As for me I like how the movie Balrog was pictured, but after all what's so important if it had wings or not. ;)

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Last edited by ~Elfin Maiden~ on December 20th, 2007, 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 4:20 pm 
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w00t for that great summary of the debate....which should probably be carried on in the thread that was made for it. :P

It's an interesting debate, though.

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PostPosted: December 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
w00t for that great summary of the debate....which should probably be carried on in the thread that was made for it. :P

It's an interesting debate, though.


I took your advice and posted it on the above link you submitted. It will be interesting to see this debate take on life again!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: December 28th, 2007, 9:17 am 
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IMHO, I think that Tolkien was intrigued by the various beliefs and teachings of death and the so called 'here-after' presented by the various religions especially his Catholic upbringing.

With the death of his father at the age of 4 yrs. and than the loss of his mother at 12 yrs. and than seeing his friends and fellow soldiers die right in front of him while fighting in war, no doubt these had a strong impact on how he viewed death in his writings.

We see now the various beliefs of death and the so called afterlife very much in his writings. The belief of the immortal soul leaving the body and going to another place, such as the Halls of Mandos. It was to the Halls of Mandos that the spirits of Elves and Men were gathered to await their different fates, and so Mandos was given its common name of the Halls of Waiting. After a time, the near-immortal Elves could be re-embodied, and return from the Halls to their kin in Aman. Men had a different fate, a fate which, even among the Lords of Valinor, only Mandos and Manwë truly understood.

Now with men being said to go to the Halls of Mandos to go to who knows where, it seems to me that this was inspired by the belief in the Catholic teaching of Purgatory. :confused: And than with the Elves taking on a new body and returning to their kin in Aman, we now have the belief of reincarnation thrown into the mix! :confused2:

I know I'm probably missing another teaching of some religious belief when it comes to death in Tolkien's writings, but my point is that Tolkien's personal life and the tragedies that befell him had such an impact on him and his writings.

So if at times we may find what he meant a bit puzzling, BTW I do at times :-D we all still love this world of Middle-earth that he wrote about and are grateful that he invited us to enter into it with him. :-D

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