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 Post subject: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 20th, 2018, 10:12 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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I don't specifically remember morroval being mentioned in the silmarilion, but it has been a long time since I read it. Are they in the book at all or no?
I know Thuringwethil is (according to some commentary I have read) thought to probably be a maia who took the shape of a bat. Is she called a vampire, morroval, or what exactly is she called and how is she described?


I'm just curious because the LOTR online game has the morroval in angmar and I was wondering if there was any cannon to back this up, or if it is simply a creation of the game developers etc...

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 21st, 2018, 2:39 pm 
Istari
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As far as my lexicons tell me, morroval must be a creation of the game developers …

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 21st, 2018, 6:46 pm 
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Gandolorin wrote:
As far as my lexicons tell me, morroval must be a creation of the game developers …
Agreed. Perhaps it's a Lord of the Rings on line character.

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 25th, 2018, 10:58 pm 
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Alrighty, that is kind of what I was thinking.

The morroval are bat people, similar to a vampire. Humans with bat feet and bat wings on their arms. It made me think of Thuringwethil, but I wasn't sure if that was where they were getting the idea from or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 26th, 2018, 5:54 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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Thuringwethil is in the Slimarillion in the Beren and Luthien chapter.
Morroval is an artistic license stretch of Thuringwethil by game developers to make an entire class of beings.

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 26th, 2018, 12:43 pm 
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That's kinda what I was thinking. Personally, weird as it may be, I kind of liked the Morroval race. I wish they were a playable race in the game.

I like to see middle Earth expanded upon, and since they have license to do so, I guess it could be considered cannon in a way, but I had hopped there was more original works to support the idea. Ah well. Just my random ramblings now. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 27th, 2018, 5:54 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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I consider canon as that which was written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself, with a consideration of 'vague-canon' to Christopher's edited works. To consider artistic license by game designers as canon is really out of reach, just like considering Peter JAckson's artistic license to portray the story in the films as he did 'canon', so, no, not canon.

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 27th, 2018, 10:34 am 
Istari
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Agreed on “story-telling” canon, Hanasian. But JRRT, referring to his “Mythology for England” (whose lack, in his well-based opinion, was caused by the Norman invasion of 1066), had explicitly stated that there was much, very much that others could pick up and develop. Music without a doubt, as he himself was not a musician (but Edith was a proficient pianist in her earlier years). Pictorial art, as I’m sure JRRT never considered himself more than an amateur dabbler in this (though he would probably have been seriously puzzled by anything Picasso, a contemporary of his, might have produced to depict Middle-earth). Even writing, as there are millennia only described in telegram-style compression, leaving enormous amounts of stuff to be fleshed out.

He might have even, if grudgingly, accepted some “Lady Chatterley” or “Conan” or “Evelyn Waugh” or {whatever} style of writing. JRRT was not so naïve as to not be aware of such styles of writing, or of people living such unconventional lives. HE was certainly not going to write like that, and had his opinions about such unconventions. But he and C.S. Lewis at least agreed that ours is a “fallen world” (sort of not just Lot and his family – minus his “salty” wife – escaped from Sodom and Gomorrah), and anyone say describing Harad or the realms of the Easterlings east of Mordor … well, ain’t gonna look like the Shire, never mind Imladris & Co.

As for writing’s distant cousin, I’ll just use the somewhat archaic term “moving pictures” here, which nicely describes a variety of things that may be seen on a variety of hardware – he was likely aware of both its strengths and weaknesses. “A picture is worth a thousand words” partly describes the MP’s strength – but due to the fleeting nature of the MP also a weakness compared to a fixed picture – paining of photography. The latter may be viewed at leisure again and again. Even with DVDs, finding an extraordinary scene in an MP for replay can be onerous. And the MP being by definition so pictorial, the “words” (dialogue) automatically shrink drastically as a proportion of the total effect. Forget CGI, an entirely pictorial technique; yes, its massive advances were necessary to pictorially display much that simply does not exist in our primary world. But not so seldom, subtlety in wording – language (duh!) can not, or very seldom except by the few geniuses, be transferred even to painting (even photography is at a massive disadvantage here; MP - meh!). Just think of bringing the entirety of the chapter “The Council of Elrond” to the MP format … :swoon:

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 29th, 2018, 10:03 pm 
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That is a valid point. Tolkien himself certainly did not write the morroval. My debate (Been through this with star wars as well) is how much to accept or deny of further elaboration upon the work of the original author.

Of course, that's a personal choice, privileged to each individual. Personally I hate thinking of a great fantasy world like Middle earth, being defined inside the perimeters of a box. Even a large box as Tolkien has created. With him not being around any more... that means middle earth would NEVER grow. I hate that thought.

So (Same with star wars) the conclusion I have settled on is that anything that does not alter or contradict the original cannon, I generally accept. So long as it seems reasonable.

I guess the morroval would be in that category for me, whatever category you might title that. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 30th, 2018, 10:36 am 
Istari
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Well, from reading through a magazine we receive from a German bookseller on a regular basis, much has been written with Elves, Dwarves, Trolls and even Orcs as the lead characters; the first three of course predate JRRT in Norse mythology, while the last are somewhat more formed by JRRT’s concept of them without being entirely his creation. And JRRT’s “Dark Elf” concept – well, actually more the term than his personal concept of it – has been taken to a logical conclusion. Maybe something like some followers of Fëanor taking a road to evil like the Black Númenóreans did, becoming allies of the enemies (and sometimes other authors’ Elves do not have much resemblance to JRRT’s Elves of any ilk at all). Hobbits, though, feature only very rarely in any fantasy writing, and in the handful of short stories I know where they do show up are supporting cast (sometimes non-trivial “guest stars”, but that’s about it).

Blurry memory also indicates that German fantasy authors may be heavily represented among those writing such books (of which I have read none). No idea how much of their output has been translated at least into English. On the other hand, any authors writing in other languages not translated into German are not to be found in this magazine I mentioned above. Pretty much any English-language originals that I wanted to buy I had to order via my favorite bookstore (not the publisher of this magazine).

In principle, and with slight exaggeration, JRRT is to (High) Fantasy what our sun is to our solar system. Be it that authors write in a way reminiscent of JRRT, be it consciously writing in a way that tries to keep as far away from Middle-earth as possible, almost no author is unaffected by this massive “gravitational pull”.

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 Post subject: Re: Thuringwethil Vs. Morroval
PostPosted: April 30th, 2018, 10:54 pm 
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Makes sense. I can see how that would be the case.

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