i guess shrek is the same kind of thing - fairy stories turned upside down. i'd say tolkien was a little more sophisticated about it though.

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*nodnod* Agreed... Tolkien is the epitome of sophistication!

Anyway, I get it now... just, based on your first post I had the impression that it had to be reversed, like a peasant daughter rescueing the prince in tower, a frog kissing the princess and turning her into a... er.. frog... the wolf attenting to the old sick granny in the deep forest etc...

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Why do we always have to have the same point of view? All that's left for me to say is "ditto."

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to subvert is to overthrow, undermine or disturb, so i don't think it necessarily has to be totally backwards, just messed up. that's what i meant anyway.

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[*muttergrowlevilglare* A-U just shut down for me in the middle of my preciouss post!]

'attenting'??? Did I really write that??? I don't even know what I wanted to say... Tending, maybe..?

Thank you for the explanation eowyn. I have officially been enlightened.
But if in that case recognizing subversions must rely on a thorough knowledge of what the traditionel writing and characteristics are. Like when doing a parody of another person one must necessarily study that person in detail to nail down his/her personality.

So Aerandir, you had the same doubts about what subversion actually mean? Otherwise there isn't much to agree on this time! lol

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Wow, that's a really cool idea. Come to think of it...does Beren ever save Luthien? She saves him from the dungeon, and other times she saves herself (such as when she escapes from the treehouse).

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yeah, it does always seem to be luthien saving beren.

also, i thought of another example. luthien singing to mandos to convince him to give them another life sort of subverts sir orfeo, in which orfeo's music moves the fairy king so much that he allows orfeo to take his wife heurodis back from the fairy land to the real world - again, tolkien subverts a tradition by having the woman playing the man's part.

sir orfeo is a middle english poem based on the orpheus myth, but tolkien's story is more akin to sir orfeo than the classical version - in the lay of luthien and sir orfeo, the couple escape back to earth to live again; whereas in the original orpheus myth, orpheus screws up and eurydice remains in hades.

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Well, Lúthien is way more powerful than Beren so it seems to me rather logical. After all she is partly Maia and who says women aren't powerful, brave etc. or aren't capable of doing great deeds?
In fact the language here is a little to much for me( ) but I have never thought of any connections to fairy tales and subverting them. One can never learn enough...

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Gah! I can't believe I didn't associate Beren&Lúthien and Sir Orfeo before. I read that not too long ago. *slaps head*

Beren did jump in front of the arrow Curufin shot at Lúthien, if that counts as him saving her.

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Tolkien used traditonal tales and ideas but gave them his twist of sophisitcation. the lay of leithien is a good example of this methinks.
Rock and roll Tolkien!!!

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

Yeah--w00t for Tolkien's rendering of fairytales.

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^
lol, yeah. Tolkien really did a great job

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That is like a major understatement. Tolkien did an absolutely awe-inspiring job, considering the way fantasy was when he was writing. I'd say that Tolkien is basically the Founder of Modern Fantasy. He certainly influenced enough other writers, after all.

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^ yuh-huh. as terry pratchett said "we are all standing on mount tolkien, influenced by him in some way".

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Terry Pratchett said that? I hadn't ever heard that before.

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Ok, ok ur right.. I just couldn't find the right words for how much I appreciate what Tolkien did.
And I've never heard that Terry Pratcher said that either. A very nice statement though.

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