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 Post subject: the silmarillion Middle-earth vs. LotR Middle-earth
PostPosted: October 9th, 2006, 2:35 pm 
Elf
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The world in the Sim. is different from the one in LotR. is it the same thing? what happened? i forget. was it changed by sea or sumthin? Need help... :bounce:

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PostPosted: October 10th, 2006, 4:09 am 
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When Morgoth was defeated, the world was 'broken' in the battle, and actually all of Beleriand is now under the sea. So, Ossiriand is now known as Lindon, and that's where Gil-galad and most of the elves fled during the breaking of the world. So actually, the Grey Havens are in the middle of Ossiriand, or what used to be called Ossiriand.

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PostPosted: October 11th, 2006, 5:44 pm 
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WOW! awesome. thanks. that's kinna cool :) ! I've read the Silmarillion,(sp?) but i forgot about how all that happened. i'm reading it again for my english class becasue i loved the book so much! :) the battles, characters and Medeival romances make it a great book.

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PostPosted: October 11th, 2006, 8:55 pm 
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The reason wasn't really the battle per se, it was more that Morgoth's connection with all of Arda's matter caused much to be destroyed in his fall.


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PostPosted: October 13th, 2006, 4:30 am 
Vala
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....to quote the book:

Thus an end was made of the power of Angbad in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern reagions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hils trod down; and Sirion was no more.

- The Silmarillion, "Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath," page 303.

So...it never really says that it was due to any connection of Morgoth to all of Arda's matter (he wasn't connected, anyways), but implies very definately that it was due to the battle/war.

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PostPosted: October 17th, 2006, 5:46 pm 
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I do believe that the reason MOST of Beleriand went under water (not all of it though), was becuase of the might of the two opposing forces.

The same happens in the Second War of the Powers. The world is broken then and also the First war of the Powers went the world splits into three continents.

However Melkor was connected with the mattter of Arda. He put much of his power intoit and this is why, in the Final Battle that takes place at the end of the World, known as the Dagor Dagortah, Arda is destroyed and has to be re-bult. For to destroy Melkor completely you must destroy Arda. That is why there is a book called 'Morgoth's Ring' becuase Arda to Melkor was the same sought of thing as The One Ring was to Sauron.


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PostPosted: October 18th, 2006, 2:51 pm 
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Hmm...well, I haven't read Morgoth's Ring, yet, so....I guess I'll have to do that soon. Thanks for the input, Lord of All.

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PostPosted: October 29th, 2006, 11:54 pm 
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*points at Lord of All's sig*

Two very informative maps I must say. They gave me a perfect idea as to how Middle-Earth changed during that time.


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PostPosted: November 1st, 2006, 6:08 pm 
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yes I found his sig rather informative too ^_^ I find the way the land split an incredably intelligent idea of Tolkien. It kinda lets him write about two different worlds in the same err planet.

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PostPosted: November 12th, 2006, 10:10 am 
Gondorian
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There is two earlier maps than those. One with Arda in its very first stage (With the two great pillars of Light and the single lake and isle of Almaren in the middle), and the one where the continents of Valinor, ME, and lands of sun were very block like and there was no Dark South land between ME and Lands of Sun.
The other is a map of the entire of Arda in the third age, but I cannot find one. New lands were formed west and east of ME, in place of the old ones.


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PostPosted: November 27th, 2006, 9:44 am 
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I have always wondered about the Geography and how both maps came to be... i kind get it now.. still readthing though

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PostPosted: December 12th, 2006, 7:38 pm 
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Are you sure that Ossiriand was not drowned as well? I thought it was.

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PostPosted: December 13th, 2006, 7:13 am 
Gondorian
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Indeed I thought Beleriand was gone after the War of Wrath to. However it is still called Beleriand in the Second Age, so I assume that the Elves there may have extended it into Lindon perhaps.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: February 19th, 2017, 12:02 pm 
Gondorian
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Aerandir wrote:
When Morgoth was defeated, the world was 'broken' in the battle, and actually all of Beleriand is now under the sea.


Agreed that, although Lindon remains in the Third Age, Ossiriand is essentially (or mostly) gone, as Treebeard's song echoes. Treebeard's verse also refers to the "highland of Dorthonion" specifically, concluding with "And now all those lands lie under the wave." I mention this as the Island of Tol Fuin (see Unfinished Tales) is really rather large, and yet even Christopher Tolkien notes that Tol Fuin "must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin" -- and we know that this was the later name of Dorthonion (which again, according to Treebeard's verse was under the waves). In other words, I would think such a large remnant of Beleriand would be notable... if it really still existed [in an external sense].

According to Tolkien's own index, Beleriand was the "lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)' [published in The Lord of the Rings, a Reader's Companion]. Moreover, there are no maps published in Tolkien's day, including the maps in the revised Lord of the Rings and the Pauline Baynes map [which Tolkien helped with] that illustrate Tol Fuin and Himling. For myself, I believe that these two Island were ultimately rejected by Tolkien, or at least forgotten -- part of an old map, representing an older idea that never resurfaced in the 1950s or later.

One idea that does surface in later texts hails from The Wanderings Of Hurin: "And a seer and harp-player of Brethil, Glirhuin, made a song saying the Stone of the Hapless should not be defiled by Morgoth nor ever thrown down, not though the Sea should drown all the land. As after indeed befell, and still the Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar. But Hurin does not lie there, for his doom drove him on, and the Shadow still followed him." The War of the Jewels


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So, Ossiriand is now known as Lindon, and that's where Gil-galad and most of the elves fled during the breaking of the world. So actually, the Grey Havens are in the middle of Ossiriand, or what used to be called Ossiriand.


Sorry to be pedantic but I don't think the Grey Havens can be in the middle of what was once Ossiriand, as the eastern boundary of Beleriand appears to be the Blue Mountains. Also, I'm not sure Tolkien had fully fleshed out where the folk of Beleriand were going to flee before the host of the West arrived. In The Tale of Years [War of the Jewels] at least, it was noted, after the last kin-slaying and Earedil's arrival in Valinor: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle of Balar." Tolkien tinkered around with this text in general, but never seems to have revised this entry at least [for whatever reason], except possibly the date.

Anyway, according to the Quenta Silmarillion, later, when the war was won, we are told that there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea, and we know that Gil-galad remained and set up his kingdom in Lindon: "That country had of old been named Lindon by the Noldor, and this name it bore thereafter; and many of the Eldar still dwelt there, lingering, unwilling yet to forsake Beleriand where they had fought and labored long." [OF The Rings Of Power And The Third Age]. So, and not that anyone said otherwise, the name Lindon was an old name, derived in the First Age, although the Sindar had previously named the land Ossiriand, Land of Seven Rivers: "The Exiled Noldor also usually referred to the Eryd Luin as Eryd Lindon, since the highest parts of that range made the eastern borders of the country of Lindon." JRRT, Quendi And Eldar, The War of the Jewels

Anyway, just my three cents.

That all said, in any case, the matter of the survival of Beleriand was a changing concept over the years, and according to Christopher Tolkien [see notes on section 28, Conclusion to Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road And Other Writings] its evolution is not easy to trace, especially when one adds in what may have survived, or not, after the Fall of Numenor as well. The conclusion of the constructed Silmarillion, published in 1977, has been edited, and leaves out some description, including the seeming survival of Western Isles and the Land of Leithian for example. But this text is essentially an early-ish work, and although Tolkien made some cursory corrections to it later, even Christopher Tolkien warns that the conclusion to Quenta Silmarillion was never fully revised and updated by his father.


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