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 Post subject: Glorfindel: was he reborn???
PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 10:44 am 
Istari
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I am setting up this topic to see what the general concensus is on Glorfindel in FOTR as to whether he is Glorfindel of Gondolin reborn and sent back to middle earth. Me, I think he is. Any opinions? Please post!!! 8)

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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 11:46 am 
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I think that Tolkien once said somewhere that Glorfindel of Imladris is really the same Glorfindel who died in Gondolin...


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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 11:51 am 
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Yeah....if you read up on him on the Encyclopedia of Arda (www.glyphweb.com/arda), I believe it agrees.

At any rate, I believe that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Imladris are one and the same.

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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 1:12 pm 
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I have always wondered about this very thing. At first, I thought it was him reborn, because I thought, since Elves can't "die", he was just bron again. But then, Elves can die in battle, and the other Glorfindel died in battle with a Balrog, so it was possible for him to die.
I really just don't know. It's possible Tolkien ran out of names. I would have ran out long before he did. But I also think it's possible that he was the same person, or Elf rather. So does anyone know who is absolutely certain.


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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 1:35 pm 
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Any other opinions? more concensus is required i say, to make this a decent discussion. Anyone who thinks to the contrary, please post and we may have a good discussion!!!

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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 1:38 pm 
Vala
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The Encyclopedia of Arda wrote:

The Problem of the Two Glorfindels

With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person?

The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death.

These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'?

The importance of this question is highlighted by the essay entitled The Problem of Ros in the same volume of The History of Middle-earth. This is an extensive disposition on the origins and meaning of the syllable ros in names such as Elros. The details need not concern us here: what is relevant is the fact that, after its composition, Tolkien noticed a detail in the published Lord of the Rings that essentially negated the discussion. He dismissed the body of The Problem of Ros with four words; 'most of this fails'.

But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value.

Despite this, the Glorfindel notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.



The above text is from www.glyphweb.com/arda.

I think that proves the point....Glorfindel is from Gondolin and Rivendell.

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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 1:43 pm 
Istari
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Some one is doubtless not of th e same mind and I wish to have discussion before we come to a common concensus. As for me I think Glorfindel was of Goldolin and Rivendell, but that is only my opinion. Any other opinion is much valued.

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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 1:58 pm 
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I have a feeling we'll have to wait a bit before someone posts in a way that gives us a reason to debate them, EonwesBestMate...

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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2006, 5:08 pm 
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I can have nothing further to say. The quoted passage above lays down undeniable evidence that they were the same person, even if they were not originally intended to be so. How can there be a debate on something that is proven to be factual? No, I'm now certain that they were the same person, and thank you to Aerandir for answering the question I've had for so long.


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PostPosted: October 23rd, 2006, 8:53 am 
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No problem, Tinuviel's Tears. Glad to help.

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PostPosted: November 27th, 2006, 2:53 pm 
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i always thought that Glorfindel from Gondolin and Glorfindel from Rivendell were two different people with the same name. because there is a Denethor in the Silm. and there is a Boromir and a Haldir. and there is also a Minas Tirith. is Minas Tirith in the Silm. and the one in LotR the same? i'm confused...

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PostPosted: December 9th, 2006, 4:14 pm 
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Yeah I noticed all of that too. It is really confusing.

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PostPosted: December 10th, 2006, 1:01 pm 
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No, Denethor, Boromir, Haldir, and Minas Tirith from the Silmarillion are all different from the ones in LotR. There are a lot of re-used names.
When I read about Glorfindel in the Silm, I originally assumed he was the same one as in LotR. But then he died, so I decided there must have been two. Then again, we learned that elves can be re-embodied after their time in Mandos, and I was really confused. But that article Aerandir quoted has some very good points, and I think I'm convinced that they were, in fact, the same person.

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PostPosted: December 12th, 2006, 7:02 pm 
Gondorian
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Glorfindel in LOTR was the same one as in The Silmarillion. Simply reincarnated in the Halls of Mandos. I think this is the only case we have of this happening.


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PostPosted: December 13th, 2006, 2:13 am 
Vala
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Well, the only case we know about, at least.

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PostPosted: December 17th, 2006, 10:24 pm 
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There's a Minas Tirith in The Silmarillion??? *MUST finish the book*

But isn't the Minas Tirith in TLotR originally Minas Anor?

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