Yes, so I have started this very same thread on three different forums (a few people may have noticed)... it would be nice to get as many people's opinions as possible. And please don't disagree with others' opinions if you have only ever watched the movies.

I think we all need a new, fresh discussion about this... there used to be a thread about the same thing, but I cannot find it.

So many people assume that Tolkien's Orcs originated from Elves that fell into darkness... but they are not. Yes, I used to assume that too... but that was before I properly read the books.

It's just a theory. I don't remember reading anything that said specifically that "Orcs were Elves that fell into darkness." It was only hinted in the Silmarillion that the Elves were taken by Melkor... but it wasn't a hard fact. Remember that Melkor made Orcs in mockery of Elves. It doesn't mean that they were made of Elves.

Most people just follow The Fellowship of the Ring MOVIE when Saruman said "They were Elves once...tortured, and mutilated...a ruined and terrible form of life...now perfected." But as we all well know, the films are littered with changed events and inaccuracy.

And.. Tolkien himself confirmed that Orcs were not bred with Elves.

Christopher Tolkien put it in The Silmarillion.

Letter No. 144:


Letter No. 153:


Later in Letter No. 153:



Thoughts?

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Knew that already. As you say, morgoth did not create them. Nor are they elves who 'fell into darkness'. Obviously, there is no stone cold evidence where they came from, but saying they are elves is a little odd.

Obviously, they must have someting elvish in origin, given they were made in mockery of the elves. I think it would be fair to say that, as Morgoth could not 'create' something of his own volition, that they were at the very least creatures that were taken by Morgoth, and changed into something else.

Well...I sure thought I read an explicit passage in the Silmarillion where Morgoth stole away some elves (or they got left behind during something, and didn't lisen to Eru's warning,) but whatever the case, Morgoth seperated them from the others and then 'twisted' them, or whatever you might call it.
Am I imagining things?

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Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun

Orcs were orginally elves, but they were abducted and stolen by the dark powers.

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Faith isn't the ability to believe long and far into the misty future.
It's simply taking God at His Word and taking the next step Joni Erickson Tada

It wasn't confirmed... so I disagree.

Riniel: You read correctly... Morgoth did capture the Elves and enslaved them, but it was merely hinted that they were twisted into Orcs.

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Its in the Silmarillion. I know its in there.

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Faith isn't the ability to believe long and far into the misty future.
It's simply taking God at His Word and taking the next step Joni Erickson Tada

I think we can never be sure what the origin of orcs really was, because it seems as if Tolkien himself didn't really know. The theory that orcs were originally elves was the first one I got to know, but it always seemed a little odd to me.. so yeah I don't really know.

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Hello everyone, new member here, but have been in several discussions on this topic before, so here's my insight.

The origin of orcs was unknown even to Tolkien himself, and he never had a chance to finalize it before his death. It is written in the Silmarillion that Morgoth captured elves and tortured them, some to the point of mutation, creating the race of orcs. However Tolkien, like pretty much anyone who has read any of his books, thought that it didn't make sense that elves could be corrupted as such. However, it seems that that is the only thing he could come up with when working on the Silmarillion before he died.

His original theory was that orcs were actually once MEN, not Elves. This made the most sense of the two theories, except in the timeline. Orcs were a part of Morgoth's army BEFORE the awakening of Men, therefore this theory was not plausible, and the aforementioned theory of Elves is the one most commonly known.

Hope this gave you some insight on the topic .

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Sig by Legolas

"What? In riddles? No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to." -Gandalf

Actually Orcs from Men came later in the external timeline.

For a long time Tolkien imagined that Morgoth created the orcs instead of corrupting something into Orcs. Then came the 'great shift' when Tolkien decided that Melkor could not do this -- rather Melkor must have corrupted already living beings -- and so entered the idea (that the Wise of Eressea thought) that Melkor had used Elves.

But Tolkien began to rethink this too and started musing about other possibilitites -- ideas which even included beasts in one text -- and when Tolkien was thinking about Men as the original stock, it should be noted that he was aware the chronology needed revising in order to make this possible.


As far as his later ideas (later 1950s to early 1970s), interestingly Tolkien seems to have decided that some Maiar had taken Orc-shape -- these were not to be 'regular' orcs however -- but I point this out because the orc-formed Maiar seem relatively consistent in the texts where Tolkien is trying to figure out where the regular orcs came from.

Aaah. I didn't know that. The movie idea was cooler though I think. It was very dramatic. Gave more depth to the character of the orcs.

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https://arwen-undomiel-official.blogspot.com/

I'd never realized that, but you're right. I always assumed they were elves, and thought it a little odd, but they're really not. Well, I say Melkor did a pretty poor job with the Orcs if they were supposed to be like elves.

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There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power.
-Gandalf

Here's my external history of the creation of orcs... and yes it's the short version. Sorry

1916-17 (Fall of Gondolin, later read at Exeter College in 1920): Melko made the Orcs 'bred of subterranean heats and slime' and they were the 'foul broodlings of Melko'

1920s: Tolkien was largely concerned with poetry in these years. His poetry includes references to orcs, but not necessarily any that indicate origin. Or that is, I'm too lazy at the moment to try any find any such references.

1930 (Qenta Noldorinwa): the Dark Lord now makes Orcs 'of stone' with 'hearts of hatred'

Mid to late 1930s: (Quenta Silmarillion) Melkor still makes Orcs: 'yet the Orcs were not made until he had looked upon the Elves.' (...) 'The Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.'

1940s and finishing up The Lord of the Rings: Tolkien, perhaps while writing The Lord of the Rings, possibly shifts from Morgoth creating Orcs to Morgoth needing to pervert something already living -- as Frodo thinks might be the case -- although right now I'm unable to exactly date this passage from Frodo (The Tower of Cirith Ungol); 'No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;...' Appendix F merely states that the orcs were first 'bred' by the Dark Power in the Elder Days. Also Treebeard notes a few things that might speak to chronology, but I'll ignore these here.

early 1950s: in The Annals of Aman as first written Melkor still 'made' orcs from something -- but the idea now enters 'Silmarillion related texts' that Melkor cannot create a true living being, as the Elf Pengolod will argue -- and a darker tale is noted among the Wise of Eressea, one that says Morgoth captured and perverted Elves, twisting them into orcs. Christopher Tolkien chose this idea for the 1977 Silmarillion -- along with other texts from this 'phase' of writing incidentally.

1954: in both letter 144 and (draft) letter 153 Tolkien essentially explains that Morgoth cannot create a spirit, and the orcs are corruptions -- leaving open the possibility of other kinds of makings, which would be puppet-like by comparison.

later 1950s (or around this time anyway): Tolkien will question whether it could be true that Orcs were actually Elves in origin, and if they could be 'immortal' if so, for example, and he writes various origins in order to figure out things. I'll call these (collectively) the Myths Transformed Orc-related Essays, and use Christopher Tolkien's numbering of the texts. The various ideas include:

A) Orcs possibly created out of the discords of the music (text VII). Tolkien writes: 'Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs the Eldar believed that Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.'

B) Orcs created from beasts; also some Maiar early on (Text VIII) -- possibly an Elvish element too, but seemingly JRRT then reverts to orcs simply being perverted beasts.

C) Orcs from Elves (probably later from Men), some Maiar early on (text IX)

D) Orcs created from Men, some Maiar early on (text X) in this essay, soon after Morgoth's return he will have a great number of Orcs to command -- as it was left to Sauron to produce great numbers of Orcs (from Men) while Morgoth was in captivity. Tolkien is aware that he will need to adjust the existing chronology in order to allow the possibility of this origin from Men.

1969 or later: two notes on Orcs now accompany one copy of text X -- that is, the Orcs from Men essay (or D above)

1) one of these notes carries a statement that denies an essential conception found in D -- and I have tried to explain this conception under D above -- the denial hails from the detail that this later note suggests Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs at the height of his power and still after his return from captivity. And to muddy things further here, this may be a draft version for a variant passage that does not include this detail!

2) this short note concerns the spelling of the word orc: here Tolkien notes that he will spell it ork -- just as he had noted in text IX (or C above), where Orcs were from Elves (and 'probably later also of Men').


I think Christopher Tolkien's point with these notes is that they might throw some measure of doubt upon the seemingly 'final' idea that 'regular Orcs' were bred from Men (text X). That said, there is another late text which appears to have Elves stating that Men are the source for Orcs:

Late text (lacks date other than final period of Tolkien's writings): author's note (note 5) to The Druedain: 'To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: 'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his shadow;...'

I can't really tell if this description is later or earlier than the two notes dated 1969 or later.

But in any case, we can see that Men, with some Maiar, are really more toward the later years, despite what Christopher Tolkien chose to publish in The Silmarillion, possibly as he didn't have to fiddle as much with the chronology, but that's just a guess.