Arwen-Undomiel.com
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/

Loyalty
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17052		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Aerandir [ November 16th, 2007, 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Loyalty
Here's a topic that occurred to me within the last few days, and probably is explainable, but it'd still be interesting to discuss.

The Silmarillion wrote:
Beren stood beside Thingol, and suddenly they were aware that Huan had left their side. Then a great baying awoke in the thicket; for Huan becoming impatient and desiring to look upon this wolf had gone in alone to dislodge him. But Carcharoth avoided him, and bursting form the thorns leaped suddenly upon Thingol. Swiftly Beren strode before him with a spear, but Carcharoth swept it aside and felled him, biting at his breast.


I remembered that passage, and then I had to wonder--why? Why would Beren strive to protect Thingol, who was no stranger to the use of arms, and was one of the mightiest of the Eldar? Thingol had rejected him at first, and would have had him executed if not for the wishes of Lúthien. Even later, he still disliked him strongly.

The Silmarillion wrote:
Then Beren led Lúthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath.


So again--why would Beren risk his life (actually, give his life) for someone who not only was perfectly capable of defending himself, but also didn't like Beren very much?

Of course, a few answers came up immediately, but they can't really be proven. Beren might have been doing it for Lúthien's sake, knowing the love she had for her father, but he also might have felt a 'love' for Thingol, as a son to a father, and thus felt it was his duty--unquestionably so--to protect him.

Either way, it resulted in his death, but it's something I find very interesting. And I was wondering if anyone else found it interesting enough to form and share an opinion on it.
Author:  Fíriel_18190 [ November 16th, 2007, 9:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I think it's a very interesting topic and I also wondered why Beren would do something like that.
The only explanation I have would also be that he did it for Lúthien's sake. Since Thingol was Lúthien's father and she loved him very much. Another reason could also be that because Thingol was such a mighty lord of the elves he felt that Thingol should be protected and that if Thingol died it would be worse than if Beren died, also because Thingol was the lord of Doriath and Doriath needed Thingol (since Melian only dwelled in Doriath as long as Thingol lived and it was her power that protected Doriath). I just think that maybe he felt this duty towards this mighty elf.
Also it could be that Beren hoped to show Thingol his loyalty and bravery that way and he hoped to get Thingol's respect because of that... but really these are only suggestions..
Author:  ethelfleda [ November 16th, 2007, 7:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
i'm afraid i can't think of any clever new theories on this one (i think you've pretty much covered all of my ideas already) but i think i can tie your ideas in with two of tolkien's greatest influences - his faith and medieval literature.

john 15:13 says "greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for another", so beren protecting thingol could have been a simple act of love. as firiel suggested, maybe that love that sprang from his love for luthien; or as aerlinniel suggested, maybe it was just because he was a good and loving kind of guy.

or...aerendir suggested that beren died for thingol out of a sense of duty. well, in medieval literature, there was a great emphasis placed on the loyalty of a warrior for his lord, so maybe beren saw thingol as his lord, in which case it would have been his duty to defend him.

either way, i think you can see tolkien's influences at play here, which is always interesting to note.
Author:  Aerandir [ November 19th, 2007, 11:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Yay for everyone agreeing with me. :D

Too bad there's nobody with a different opinion to debate. :P
Author:  Fíriel_18190 [ November 19th, 2007, 1:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
haha yeah right.. you wish.. well I guess that the theories we have are the ones that are the most obvious ones and that's why we all agree ;)
Author:  Altariel Frodo [ December 5th, 2007, 10:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have to agree with those who have been posting as well.

Really, I personally think that for Beren it just came down to instinct, duty, and love. Even though he gave his life for Thingol, I'm sure he would have been miserable if he had done nothing but stand aside and watch as Carcharoth leapt on and killed Thingol. Beren perhaps did not have a personal relationship with Thingol, but he was a loving person, and willing to place someone else - even someone who didn't like him - above himself.

I hadn't thought about this much before. A most interesting topic.
Author:  Fíriel_18190 [ December 6th, 2007, 1:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
^
it is a very interesting topic indeed. I also think that Beren tended to place someone else above himself if he honoures him - I don't think he has to necessarily like him..
Author:  FRODOFAN [ December 7th, 2007, 12:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's a very heroic action to protect someone that doesn't even like you in return. Beren was a good person. He would not have let someone die just because he didn't like them (even if he didn't).
Author:  Lianna Greenleaf [ December 28th, 2007, 5:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Frodofan, it was very heroic. I also believe that Beren is a good person, and it was a very kind deed of his to save Thingol, even though the Elf-King didn't like him.
Author:  Ithuar [ January 7th, 2008, 2:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didn't Thingol have a change of heart after Beren and Lúthien returned from their quest? I remember there being a passage that said that Beren seemed to Thingol to be no ordinary Man or something of the sort, and that Thingol accepted him as his son-in-law. And in the next chapter it's said that Thingol came to be a friend of the Edain, or he wouldn't have fostered Túrin.

But for all we know Beren just wanted to get back at that dog for biting off his hand. He was said to be brave after all.
Author:  mephiston, lord of death [ January 9th, 2008, 7:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think there may be another reason here. In the sil Thingol said that no man would enter Doriath, "Not even those of the house of Beor who serve Finrod the Beloved."
Here,we can see an Elf who has a pretty set view on Men. And its not that good.
Now, my logic here is, apart from him (Beren) feeling a sense of duty to protect his father in law and his new liege lord, is that Beren wanted to prove himself even more so. I think maybe Beren wanted to prove that Men are more than he thought they were, that they were brave and strong and completely loyal.

I may have read too far into it, but hey, whatever :P:p:P:P:P
Author:  Larael [ February 16th, 2008, 10:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Beren is a very honourable character, and I'd like to believe that no matter how much he liked or disliked someone and no matter whether they were able to defend themselves or not, he would defend or die for them before seeing them lost. Unless of course they were ridiculously evil... :P
Author:  ethelfleda [ February 17th, 2008, 5:08 am ]
Post subject: 
mephiston - that seems like a reasonable idea to me. i don't think beren would have defended thingol just to prove himself (as larael said, he would defended anyone it was in his power to defend), but that could well have been in his mind.
Author:  Fíriel_18190 [ February 23rd, 2008, 10:29 am ]
Post subject: 
^
yeah I agree with you. I'm sure Beren was proud of his kin especially after all they had done and he was the only man left of them
Author:  Culúrien [ March 1st, 2008, 11:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Personally I think it's instinctive, and he didn't stop to think - he sees a crazy beast about to kill someone - jump in and intervene. A self-less act, a brave act. There would be no time to think "I need to prove myself" or "I must do this for Luthien, think of how broken-hearted she'd be.." in the split second before the Carcharoth (unsure of spelling) attacks someone, he just jumps straight in. And there wouldn't be much time to think those thoughts during the battle either, would there? Perhaps as he lay dying he might have thought "Well I'm glad Thingol doesn't hate me anymore" or something along those lines - but would a brave man who risked his life travelling to Morgoth himself and back think about how he can improve someone's opinion of him as he battles a humongous, terrifying beast? Somehow I don't think so.... :confused: just my opinion.
Author:  Aerandir [ June 11th, 2008, 3:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah, but we already know that Beren didn't feel an unquestioned duty to defend all Elves and Men. Ones that showed him aggression were dealt with aggressively. For example, Curufin and Celegorm.

Thingol was definitely hostile towards Beren at first. It was only after Beren returned with the Silmaril and Lúthien that Thingol began to respect him. It's not specifically said, but I get the idea that it wasn't a very long time after Beren and Lúthien returned that Carcharoth attacked. So Beren didn't have a long time to get over the fact that Thingol was feeling somewhat hostile towards him. I think that it was his own feeling that in having won Lúthien, he now had a duty towards Thingol as a son does to his father.

Something along those lines--I don't believe that it was just instinct. Beren kind of disproved the notion that he would instinctively defend any Elf or Human earlier.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/