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Post subject: Posted: February 19th, 2006, 12:20 pm |
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Joined: 18 February 2006 Posts: 278 Location: My house!
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I don't know where it says the movie showing the Uruk pits were correct, but Tolkien states several times that Orcs multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar. So... eww... didn't want to think about Orc babies...
Sauron sought to conquor, but Morgoth before him, sought not to conquor, but to destroy. To rule the mindless choas in the cold void.
Oh, Orcs are not made from Elves. Saruman is wrong. The Elves in whom believe that are wrong. They are Tolkien's characters, not Tolkien himself, they can make mistakes about their world. They were Men. And the creation of Orcs used the intitial Men in the far east, who actually awoke much sooner than the Simarillion leads one to believe.
_________________ Son of FrostLord and Natalie Portman Brother of FaZiovsky
Clueless member of the Welcoming Team
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Post subject: Posted: February 20th, 2006, 5:10 pm |
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Joined: 10 September 2005 Posts: 5839 Location: P3X-774, Rohan, Moya, or my TARDIS
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No, orcs are mutilated elves. I forget where it is in the silmarrilion, but it states that Morgoth captured elves and totured them into orcs. Poor elves. I want to hug one.
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Post subject: Posted: February 21st, 2006, 9:33 am |
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Joined: 18 February 2006 Posts: 278 Location: My house!
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"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty."
Little is known of a certainty.
"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea."
Yet this is "held" true.
Quotes from the Silmarillion. Tolkien also said this once, "They are my characters, not me. They can be wrong about the world they live in, just as we can be wrong about ours." Or something to that effect. But it is true that J.R.R. Tolkien intended Orcs to have been bred from men.
_________________ Son of FrostLord and Natalie Portman Brother of FaZiovsky
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Post subject: Posted: February 21st, 2006, 10:12 pm |
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Joined: 10 September 2005 Posts: 5839 Location: P3X-774, Rohan, Moya, or my TARDIS
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You're right. i looked it up, and the source says that they were bred from men. But I also think that at least a few were bred from elves. I don't have any prof, but it also said that Sauron corrupted many thing. Why would elves be an exception?
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Post subject: Posted: February 21st, 2006, 11:11 pm |
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Joined: 18 February 2006 Posts: 278 Location: My house!
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Sauron didn't make any new evil beings, he only modified what Morgoth had made.
Morgoth did indeed corrupt Elves. The Kinslaying, the Ruin of Doriath, and the time Elwing was forced into the sea by other Elves. The Oath of Feanor.
Orcs were bred from Men because Men are more malleable. Elves are bound to the world, they are part of it, Men are not, they stretch. Men are also more easily swayed.
Also, Morgoth didn't "create" anything. Trolls are not "made" in mockery of Ents, Orcs are not "made" in the mockery of the Children of Iluvatar. They were merely bred from existing things and twisted. Elves he captured were tormented and enslaved, but I doubt Morgoth could have "bred" anything from an Elf, seeing as how closely bound to nature it was.
_________________ Son of FrostLord and Natalie Portman Brother of FaZiovsky
Clueless member of the Welcoming Team
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Post subject: Posted: July 4th, 2006, 4:21 pm |
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Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 253
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Post subject: Posted: July 6th, 2006, 6:37 pm |
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Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 12
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It's disgusting how they tortured the ELves to make Orcs ... that is just plain sick
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Post subject: Posted: July 7th, 2006, 3:53 am |
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Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 253
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Post subject: Posted: July 11th, 2006, 2:12 pm |
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Joined: 11 July 2006 Posts: 143
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I agree with the link that Lord of all has provided in the previous post.
In later years, Tolkien shifted the idea that Orcs derived from Men, as is shown clearly in the link.
Although, I still find the mockery of Elves a much original idea.
Thanks,
Eärendil The Mariner
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Post subject: Posted: July 11th, 2006, 4:09 pm |
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Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 253
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To elaborate on something said in that link I gave.
Elves came about just before the second war between Melkor and the Valar - the War of Powers.
Now Melkor would have needed armies to fight this war, and frankly, a few Balrogs, Sauron and some dragons would have hardly sufficed - he needed his Orcs and lots of them. Now Men did not come about until much later, so Melkor would have had to have used Elves out of the two.
Therefore unless anyone suggests Melkor fought the War of powers without Orcs, then Orcs cannot be Men.
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Post subject: Posted: August 1st, 2006, 9:49 pm |
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Joined: 16 March 2006 Posts: 20465 Location: Gondolin Country:
Gender: Female
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I thought this would be interesting. I found this in a Tolkien Encyclopedia that I just bought yesterday cos I was still wondering where I can find something a bit more brief about Orcs. So here it is.
Quote: Within the deepest Pits of Utumno, in the First Age of Stars, it is said Melkor committed his greatest blasphemy. For in that time he captured many of the newly risen race of Elves and took them to his dungeons, and with hideous acts of torture he made ruined and terrible forms of life. From these he bred a Goblin race of slaves who were as loathsome as the Elves were fair.
These were the Orcs, a multitude brought forth in shapes twisted by pain and hate. The only joy of these creatures was in the pain of others, for the blood that flowed within Orcs was both black and cold. Their stunted form was hideous: bent, bow-legged and squat. Their arms were long and strong as the apes of the south, and their skin was black as wood that has been charred by flame. The jagged fangs in their wide mouths were yellow, their tongues red and thick, and their nostrils and faces were broad and flat. Their eyes were crimson gashes, like narrow slits in black iron grates behind which hot coals burn. These Orcs were fierce warriors, for they feared more greatly their master than any enemy; and perhaps death was preferable to the torment of Orkish life. They were cannibals, and often their rending claws and slavering fangs were gored with bitter flesh and the foul black blood of their own kind. They were fearful of light , for it weakened and burned them. Their eyes were night seeing, and they were dwellers of foul pits and tunnels. More quickly than any other beings of Arda their progeny came forth from the spawning pits. At the end of the First Age of Stars was the War of the Powers in which the Valar came to Utumno and broke it open. They bound Melkor with a great chain, and destroyed his servants in Utumno and with most of them the Orcs.
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Post subject: Posted: August 2nd, 2006, 5:26 am |
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Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 253
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May I ask where that quote is from?
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Post subject: Posted: August 2nd, 2006, 8:21 am |
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Joined: 28 July 2006 Posts: 84
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Yeah I personally don't trust that quote at all. Tolkien never explicitly stated orcs were elves, hence I don't trust that as being written by Tolkien.
Lord of All, what makes you think Melkor had large armies of orcs during The War Of Powers? He had lots of his corrupted Ainur, and frankly the orcs would not have made one bit of difference. Also, it is speculated that the earliest orcs were Ainur, but much much weaker than other creatures of that race.
_________________ Great is the victory of the Noldoli
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Post subject: Posted: August 2nd, 2006, 10:04 am |
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Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 253
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Do you propose that Melkor could take on the other Valar and heap of Maiar with Sauron, about 4 Balrogs, and some dragons?
I merely want to know the origin of Haldir O Lorien's quote - I did not say its unrealiable. You only say that becuase it contradicts what you beleive - I have given numerous other quotes in the other Topic about this.
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Post subject: Posted: August 2nd, 2006, 11:48 am |
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Joined: 28 July 2006 Posts: 84
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It is not said that Melkor had dragons at that time, and Sauron was hiding in Angband.
I'm not proposing that Melkor and some Balrogs could take on the Valar by themselves, which is why they were defeated. You seem to be forgetting that Melkor actually lost this battle when you talk about it
_________________ Great is the victory of the Noldoli
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Post subject: Posted: August 2nd, 2006, 11:56 am |
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Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 253
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You also seem to be forgetting that the Battle took many Days. If Melkor had just Balrogs then it would be an almost immediate victory.
You (and me earlier) are also forgetting that Balrogs did not fight in that war - they were hiding in the pits the Valar did not descend.
So How could Melkor possibly manage to hold back all the other Ainur for a few days by himself?
In short AS THE QUOTE ABOVE says Melkor had Orcs at his disposal - hence its not possible Orcs could be Men.
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