Okey dokey, here we go!

Welcome to the Summer Re-read! The deadline for this week is Chapter VI, The Old Forest. I don't think there's any 'rules' here, so jump right in and have fun! *throws confetti*

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

Yay! *blows party horns* I should make some Lembas to eat while I read.

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thanks for the Hobbit Team banner, Lembas!

Yay, for having the first thread up!

So I started reading last night and thought of something. Did you ever think about Frodo as a kid and of his parents, Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck? Apparently, they drowned on the Brandywine river when Frodo was very young. It's just I never pictured Frodo's parents...

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Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara

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Just became a college freshman; be on sparingly

I've always been a bit curious about Frodo's parents; we aren't really given much in terms of their personalities and I've always wondered if Frodo was like his parents or if his 'wanderlust' or whatever was entirely because of Bilbo's influence or if his parents were like that too. They drowned, right? And most hobbits aren't keen on the water, so that might point to a bit of an adventurous spirit.

Also, it got me thinking about other surrogate parents in LotR: we have Frodo and Bilbo, Eomer, Eowyn, and Theoden, Aragorn and Elrond, and Elrond and his brother Elros were brought up by Maedhros and Maglor. I wikied Tolkien to double check and his parents were both dead by the time he was 12. From what I remember he was reasonably close to his foster parent, and all of the previous relationships I mentioned are portrayed quite positively too. I love seeing how events and influences from an author's life can come into his works. Tolkien did it with Luthien/Beren and Arwen/Aragorn, too, paralleling him and his wife.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

^Yeah, I've also wondered a lot about Frodo's personality.. how he and Bilbo (but also Sam, Merry and Pippin) were so different from the rest of the Shire-hobbits... I've sort of come to the conclusion that they might simply just have been ordinary hobbits happening to live in extraordinary times and being able to take that responsibility on them and develop and grow with their task... at least I like to think that they are the heroes of everyday life... This means that we all could be heroes.. if something unexpected came to disturb our peaceful lives... I hope that people would do it!!

It's really interesting about Tolkien's parents and how he apparently draws on things from his own life.. I never thought about it before but it's a good point.

Every time I read the books what strikes me the most is the master/servant relationship between Sam and Frodo.. especially in the beginning of the book. I know they downplayed it in the movie but also I just can't comprehend it in my mind.. the fact that Tolkien made the Shire into a class-society. It just simply doesn't fit my picture of the peaceful, happy and carefree Shire-life. But there is a wealthy 'ruling' class, merchants and handicraft workers and servants..

Also, I've been wondering what the wealthy hobbit families live off? It is described how wealthy and numerous they were but not a lot about what they do for a living.. [It should be noted that I haven't read The Hobbit, shame on me]

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I think Sam fits the description of the ordinary hobbit who lives in extraordinary times the best; Frodo seemed to have inherited a bit of a wander-lust that's apparently untypical of most hobbits. To be honest, I've never really tried to delve into the hobbits characterization, so I'm excited to get a firmer grasp on their personalities.

It's a bit of a shocker, isn't it? I remember Nurr started a thread a while ago about how in the beginning of FotR Merry and Frodo are shown to be really close, whereas in the movie they always emphasized Merry/Pippin and Sam/Frodo. It's wonderful to see the growth of Sam and Frodo in the book, whereas in the movie it's more of a pre-existing bond that's strengthened through adversity.

But I always have to do this little adjustment and switch my brain around when I read about the Shire in the book. The classes are much more emphasized. The only person who seems to mention them in the movie is Faramir (EE TTT) when he talks about how gardeners must be held in high honour in the Shire for Sam to voice his own opinions, so to speak. I wonder why they gave him that line.

Also, I love Tolkien's humour. For some reason, it reminds me of the way Agatha Christie writes; showing all these strange quirky people in a humorous but not harsh or scornful way. "'My dear people,' began Bilbo, rising in his place. 'Hear! Hear! Hear!' they all shouted, and kept on repeating it in chorus,seeming reluctant to follow their own advice."

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

^Yup, love his small remarks.. it gives the story such a light feeling amidst all the heavy stuff. 'Amidst'.. hmm did I really say that? Must be Mr. Tolkien's influence on me there..

Yeah, I saw Nurr's thread but it didn't deal so much with the servant/master relationship... I think I might wanna start a thread on it some time..
Concerning the scene with Faramir it might have been to remind an ignorant audience that there was a social difference between Sam and Frodo.. Hmm.. or it might be to compliment Sam.. showing the respect Faramir shows Frodo's servant.

By the way, I was wondering.. did you find any.. sort of general questions to ask for the first discussion?

And also.. where is the other members of the book club???

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>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<



Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara

Yup! I found an online study guide that's got some interesting questions. Feel free to pick and choose and discuss anything that grabs your attention.

1.) How would you describe the hobbits way of life, and what are their main characteristics? How are they different from us, and how are they similar?

2.) We are told that Gandalf's "real business was far more difficult and dangerous' than working with fireworks. As you read, what do you discover Gandalf's real business to be, and why is it dangerous?

3.) Why doesn't Gandalf tell Bilbo straight out what the Ring can do to him?

4.) What is the significance of Gollum having been a hobbit before acquiring the Ring?

5.) What qualities do Sam, Pippin, and Merry possess that make them suitable companions for Frodo?

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

Every time I get on here, I mean to post. But my book with my notes is up in my room, and my computer is downstairs. So it never seems to happen. But now I've got a lot to reply to!



I think that's something Tolkien really wanted to get across - how they were ordinary, but able to do such monumental things. At one point Gandalf says:



Later on Merry and Pippin say:


Which I think says a lot to the hobbit nature. They're completely loyal. And like Merry says, they're frightened. But that won't stop them from doing something. Hobbits are so amazing! There's a reason they're my favorites.

Even later on (where we haven't gotten yet, but it fits the discussion) Tolkien writes:





Yes! It's awesome. Such as when they leave Bag End, "They left the washing up for Lobelia." Actually, a lot of the stuff with Lobelia is pretty awesome.

I really love the progression of Sam. I know in the movies we see him go from gardener to hero, but I do wish they had put even more of his journey in. What, just cause he's my favorite character? Nooooo, wouldn't think that.... But how he really wants to see the elves, and his description after he sees them. I guess a lot of what Sam says is beautiful to me.


And, of course, we've already mentioned Merry. I feel sad with him, who is brilliant, a leader, and Frodo's closest friend. He is relegated to just slightly more intelligent than Pippin. But he is the one who caused the others to follow Frodo, and came up with all the plans, and all that.


I love Frodo's thoughts about his friends. Gildor says he should take companions with him, and he considers it. But then says:

I think Frodo is often portrayed as so concerned with the Ring and his quest that people skip over his deep concern for his friends. He really truly wants to save them all - it's his main mission. Sure, he knows the destruction of all Middle-Earth is bad, but he most of all wants to save the Shire. "I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable." (Which is why the loss of the Scouring of the Shire in the movies is very sad. It's so vital to the characters. But I digress.)

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going on a journey through my old claims

Heh... I've been reading FOTR and have writing on nearly every page now... almost too much to really put here, but I can discuss some of the things I have noted.

In the chapter "Three is Company" the ring-wraiths first show up. I had not noticed that before, but the Gaffer actually talks to one of them and sends him away.

Another thing I had forgotten is that Tolkien often uses the thoughts and feelings of the things around his characters. A little down the road from the wraith, a fox expresses his thoughts on the travelers.

In "A Conspiracy Unmasked" Merry says this,

That in itself is very interesting, and says a lot about farmer Maggot. There seems to be a lot more to the character than just a simple farmer, for no normal hobbit would go into the Old Forest of their own accord without good reason.

A trend that I noticed was the trend of dreams. In Crickhollow, Frodo dreams of the Tower Hills and the draw they have, despite never having seen them. Later, in Bombadil's house, he dreams of Orthanc and Gandalf, also without knowing what or where it is. Finally, during the last night in Tom's house (first paragraph of "Fog on the Barrow-downs") Frodo dreams of Valinor and the veil turning all to glass and silver. I find these instances interesting, perhaps an allusion to Frodo being a seer of some kind, or maybe it is merely a side effect of the Ring. Nonetheless, he is seeing things that he logically should not be able to.

Two last things, a comment on Samwise and a disturbing image of Tom.

1:
2:

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I'm not sure whether we were supposed to go to or through The Old Forest, but I'll go ahead and make some comments on it anyway.


I think it's very interesting that the hobbits would do that! Here they are, as we think of them - a timid, happy, quiet little people. But they hacked down hundreds of trees! Trees that they knew moved and such. It says a lot about the nature of hobbits themselves, about the "seed of courage" and about how they are quite extraordinary, when put to it.


This is the point where I started making notes about "Sam saves the day! #__" (I considered it in "Conspiracy" as they are indebted to Sam for information, and how they effect events, but....) This is Sam saving the day for the first time. We already see the sort of hobbit he can be, and a glimpse of what he will do later.

Also, who else caught the (possible?) reference to the Ents? In The Shadow of the Past, Sam says "But what about these Tree-men, these giants...this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking".

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going on a journey through my old claims

Yup, we were supposed to read through the Old Forest, and actually, it's a new week so by this Saturday or Sunday we should be through Chapter XII, Flight to the Ford.



Nurr, I was coming here to comment on that exact thing! I had no recollection of that at all. They really are surprisingly tough when they get 'woken up' and they're totally willing to do what it takes to protect themselves and the Shire.

I also love the part about the Conspiracy; to have Merry spying and collecting information for years, and for Pippin and Sam and him to be conspiring together to follow Frodo while he's conspiring to leave them just adds so much depth to their characters. They're not dumb, they're not comic relief, they're loyal, brave, stubborn, and smart.

Tom Bombadil is awesome. Just going to go ahead and say that. He's strange and I have no idea who he is, but the idea of this guy who is nobody's servant and nobody's master, yet so unbelievably powerful, but also so...flippant. He's just fascinating.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

I have thought about that a lot actually. There are a lot of small details like that in LoTR that are easy to read about and forget. I always pictured that it contributed to Frodo's character and his patience and understanding.



Yes, but I also rememeber reading in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that Tolkien hated it when people compared his works of fictions to that of real life, such as when readers wondered if his experience in the war reflected on The War of the Ring, though my memory might be failing me as usual. I suppose it's pretty obvious that Luthien and Beren where parallel to him and his wife, though, considering that he wrote their names on his grave but Arwen and Aragorn I'm not so sure about.



It might be that they have lots of great fancy things, and came into inheritance of them from a long line of some distant relatives. Smeagol's grandmother was of great wealth, and I remember Gandalf telling Frodo in Shadows of the Past that she was in possession of many rich things, so maybe that is also the case with the rich hobbits of the Shire. Bilbo was wealthy as well, by having all that treasure from Smaug. And it could also be that they own many farms, therefore having many crops to sell.

Also, you haven't read all of Tolkien's books? That's a bad hobbit, you know. (that was horrible )


Hobbits seem to have a simple, easy way of life, such as living in a hole instead of building a house, and choosing not to wear shoes but instead have their feet grow tougher over time. They obviously have a love for food, and I think we humans would secretly like to eat as much food as they do, if we didn't have the pressure of appearance on us. However they also work hard if they must, and are willing to face challenges if it comes it. And as stated before, "even the most timid hobbit has a seed of courage buried in him" (quoting from memory). Hobbits in general seem to posses a goodness about each and every one of them, and admittedly, that isn't necessarily true about all humans. Plus, they are a simple folk, whereas some people in this world....are not.


To be honest Gandalf was to me a mystery all throughout Fellowship, and I never really knew what he was up to completely, although I think this is a little intentional. But in any case I was given the impression that his business was very very dangerous, and compared to making fireworks for laughing fat hobbits, it was unimaginably perilous.


Maybe to make sure he doesn't scare the poor hobbit to death. Although Bilbo has an excessive amount of courage, he was getting very old by the end of Fellowship. And perhaps it would make Bilbo think that Gandalf was somehow making up lies and trying to take it from him, as the Ring was already starting to take hold of Bilbo by then, or at least that's my interpretation.


Ooooooh, Gollum, my favorite subject... *dodges flying stones*
Well, to me this is a little obvious. What with the main character being a hobbit, making one of his enemies a corrupted hobbit makes it a living reality that he can be taken over the Ring. It just goes to show that the whole "Ring is bad" thing isn't just a lot of talk, if you know what I mean. It really is horrible, and it can twist anyone. It makes it that much more intense for the characters and the reader alike.



They are Frodo's friends. They all seem to posses a characteristic that makes them just a seed different from other hobbits, but of course that seed blooms as the books go on.

I'm going to bed now. I'm looking forward to discussing this more. Nighty Night.

Very true. When he first shows up in the Shire, Tolkien says "His real business was far more difficult and dangerous, but the Shire-folk knew nothing about it. To them he was just one of the 'attractions' at the party."


Wonderful! May I use that quote, sometime? And I agree with what you say about Tom - he is an extremely fascinating character. I'll save him for the proper thread, but there's so much and yet so little said about him!


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I don't think they really are different from other hobbits. They are Frodo's friends, and Bilbo's which could make them predisposed to have some desire for adventure. And, of course, Merry being a Brandybuck, he's a bit "odd". But in essentials, I think any hobbit has the ability to do what they did. I talked about it some up there ^ about hobbit qualities. And I seem to remember a quote by someone, astonished at what Frodo is like, thinking that Bilbo was a special hobbit but realizing perhaps there was more to all of them. I thought it was Elrond, but I couldn't find it, unfortunately.

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going on a journey through my old claims

Haha, of course! I'm still stunned that I have clearly been missing out on one of the best parts of the Lord of the Rings.



Hmm...I don't really think I agree, either. I think it's essential to realize that it's not that Merry, Frodo, Pippin, and Sam possess a characteristic that makes them different from the others, but that they were placed in a different set of circumstances that simply revealed a characteristic deeply embedded into hobbits in general? Like Gandalf said to Elrond after the Council, while trying to choose the Fellowship; that in the case of the quest friendship and loyalty would probably count more than anything else. In that respect I agree with Nurr that a number of different hobbits could have taken on the quest



I think I'd have to disagree here too, at least in part. I agree that their way of life is fairly easygoing and simple, but I don't think living in a hole is any easier than living in a house; you need to burrow it out, and it's furnished, floored, there's windows, doors, kitchens, cellars, fireplaces; it IS a house, really, just surrounded by earth. Also while we don't see many hobbits looking for world domination, there are greedy hobbits, vain hobbits, stupid hobbits, and mean-spirited hobbits. I think their simple way of life means there's no large-scale evil in the Shire, but in terms of personality they're just as diverse as humans. Saying that they all have a goodness about them denies their complexity.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.