WOW I'm late with this, should have gone up Sunday or Monday. My bad, apologies, etc etc. Continue any discussion of previous chapters in the proper thread, and feel free to dive right into the new ones here.

I'm going to post the study guide questions now, instead of at the end; since we've all read it before, I think it makes more sense. That way you can read the book with the questions in mind.

1.) Based on Tom Bombadil's response to Frodo's question, "Who are you, Master?" on Goldberry's earlier description of him as "the Master of wood, water, and hill," and on his appearance and behaviour, who-or what-would you say he is? Why is he important to the hobbits' success?

2.) What kinds of songs are sung in The Lord of the Rings? Do the circumstances in which each is sung have particular importance? How do their own songs and songs taught to them help Frodo and his friends?

3.) Frequently in myths and legends, waking from sleep or donning new clothes (as following the barrow episode) indicates that the hero has reached a new level of knowledge, strength, skill, or courage. When does this kind of incident occur in The Lord of the Rings?

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Aahhh, so much to talk about in this part of the read. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry and The Barrow-wights.. those parts have always puzzled me the most because we are left so much to guessing and assuming.



Umm.. we have discussed this at length and I think I'm content to believe that Tom is an old spirit who is either born of Mother Nature herself of some kind of maia who came to Middle-earth with the Wise.
But I'm still more intrigued by Goldberry because Tolkien doesn't care to say much of her. Do you think she is as old as Tom and as powerful as he is? Or is it difficult perhaps to compare their powers because they might be of different kinds, maybe they complete each other like yin and yang, male and female?


Interesting... I've always thought the incident on the Barrow-Downs to be the most creepy and scary chapter. What are the barrow-wights?? How did the spirits become evil?
I'm not sure that I agree with the question.. that the hobbits being clad in white garments have the same symbolic meaning as other myths and legends. If only then it might serve to show that the hobbits have now passed beyond the borders of the Shire.. and proved able to deal with enemies and are ready for the challenges ahead...?


A last comment I'd like to make, though it doesn't deal specifically with this part of the book. But did you guys notice how Tolkien describes 'evil' as foul and grim etc. I haven't made notes about it so I can't find any good quote to back me up. It strikes me becourse Tolkien usually uses very poetic, describing and almost subtle language and, as have been mentioned before, he uses the thoughts and comments of other characters to convey a certain atmosphere or opinion. But when he describes the 'evil' he is very consistent in using blunt words like 'evil' and 'foul'... to me it comes across rather clumsy and .. I dunno.. biased in a way.

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I think that Tom might be one of the Maiar, perhaps a servant of one of the Valar. On the other hand, he might even be the physical representation of one of the Valar themselves, seeing as the Ring holds no power over him. He seems to be important to the Hobbit's success in showing them that not all is lost even in the darkest places and times (Old Man Willow/The Barrows)



The songs sung in Middle Earth tend to either be on the drinking song side or are an example of Middle Earth's long history. Even Tom's songs hint at the darker past surrounding the Barrows. As far as the songs Frodo and co. know, they help the hobbits to further understand the world they inhabit.

Sleep: Crickhollow and Bombadil's house. Clothes: Barrows. All three are instances in which the hobbits have learned of some old evil or have interacted with something dark.

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To be honest, Tom and Goldberry confuse me SO MUCH that I've given up trying to figure out what they are or who they are. Some sort of old spirits, independent of all the other races, like Elves, Men, and Dwarves. Him being a Maia doesn't really make sense to me, but I can't explain why.

The interesting thing to me is why they're included at all. What's the point? What do they add to the story besides lots of question marks? The closest I've come to an answer is that Tom shows the hobbits (and Frodo in particular) that the Ring isn't all-powerful. It doesn't 'work' on Tom. It kinda ties into what Sam (?) says in RotK, while he was in Mordor and briefly saw a star gleaming in the otherwise cloudy sky; that the evil can't conquer forever and that there's some things it can't touch.

Hmm...to be honest, Ea, I hadn't noticed that before, so I can't say anything about it. But I will be watching for it now, because that's kinda intriguing.

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I haven't read much of the background for the books but I think someone said in one of the countless Tom Bombadil threads we once had going that Tolkien wrote it after he had been writing The Hobbit, which is more of a children's book and therefore was sort of 'in a lighter mood'. He might have wanted to expand on the Tom Bombadil plotline and make it a stand alone story, or he might have other intentions... But I can't say for certain, just a thought.

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Ah, that makes a lot of sense.

Who else thinks the Barrow-wights are one of the creepiest things/parts in the whole book? The whole picture of Sam, Merry, and Pippin laid out with swords across their necks, dressed in white and all jewelled up... It actually scares me and I don't find this book particulary scary. Not in the tingles up my back, stomach-knotting, shallow breathing way. Freaks me out.

I find it interesting that in the book, Sam finds the Prancing Pony really dangerous looking and objects to staying there. It shows how they're all getting kinda nervous, jumping at shadows.

The song that Frodo sings at the inn, with the 'cow jumped over the moon' verse. Did Tolkien just hunt down the remainder the song that most people didn't remember, or did he make up some verses and then use the already existing nursery rhyme?

Mr. Butterbur is my new hero.

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And, here goes. Thoughts first, then to question responding.


I love this description of Goldberry. We don't get much of her, and I think it's beautiful the way Tolkien writes it. She's more like mortals, more tied to the earth, than the elves. But then she's secluded from all the people of the earth even more than the elves are. It's an amazing contradiction.

Someone already mentioned Frodo's dream - I think it's a great thing to put in. Somehow he gets a glimpse of Valinor, and then gets to actually experience it....

TOM BOMBADIL. Who is he? We never know. But he is SO fascinating! I love Goldberry's statement "He is" and definitely got the sense of Illuvatar from it, as well as him being "Master". But that still doesn't make sense, since later they say Tom may be careless and lose the Ring, which isn't something I'd expect from Illuvatar. And would he marry? I wouldn't say he's a Maia, because Gandalf and Saruman are also Maia and are tempted by the ring.

But another thing (including the Master title) that makes me feel he's related somehow to Illuvatar (don't you just LOVE the back and forth mystery he has?) is when Tom is telling them stories.

Just the way time seems to stop when Tom talks.

And then when Frodo puts on the Ring, and Tom can still see him, also makes me think of how he is Master. The Ring preys on desire, or at least that's much of how I see it. Temptation, and such. Tom is so much his own master that he doesn't succumb to that sort of thing, and so the Ring has no power over him. It's so incredible! And he's so fascinating!

Tom as Master - he names the ponies, and they respond to those names forever afterwards. Just another neat little thing showing his mastery of man and beast.

And last thing on Tom: He talks in a "clear and commanding voice" when he wakes the hobbits and destroys the wight, which is an interesting thought after all his singing, and I love his song when he rescues them from the barrow-wight:

I love the idea of his song being his strength, and the power that comes from them. Not weaponry, but song.

The wights are terrifying. The description of everything being all cold and dreary and grim....the sword and the hobbits dressed in white...and that terrifying hand that goes to kill them. It's the spookiest part of the whole thing, for me.


Moving right along....Yay Merry! Once again, his role is downplayed in the movies, but here he finds out the riders are in Bree and makes it so that they will be safe during the night.

I love that Fatty wakes the hobbits and sounds the alarm when the riders try to break into Crickhollow. This kind of goes back to Merry, Pippin, and Sam not being extraordinary hobbits. Fatty didn't want to go, but he did have courage to stay and keep everyone else safe.


I think a lot of this story is about how no one person can do everything alone, but that great deeds are done by many. This is kind of obvious in the debate over a "true hero" of the books, but he makes it pretty clear throughout. When the wraiths are chasing them, Frodo says there is no escape. But Strider says "There is still hope...You are not alone."

And later when Glorfindel (yay! He's fascinating too) comes, Frodo doesn't want to ride away and leave his friends in danger. More little things that enrich his character.

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GOLDBERRY does appear to be more connected to the earth and Nature than any other races - even the elves - and yet she seems more .. hmm.. yeah, maybe more human than Tom..
And TOM on the other hand is so aloof and yet he seems to care for the smallest details and the.. well.. I don't even have words to describe this couple.. I have thoughts in my head but when it comes to writing them down.. It's like the words won't come out. Kudos to Tolkien for being able to write like that.


True.. He IS.. and that seems to be all we need to know (except it isn't. ).
I think the Maiar can be as different as we humans, or elves, or hobbits, or individuals in any other race. Look at Saruman who got corrupted, or Radagast who seemed to prefer a life in solitude among birds and beasts and never took part in the War of the Ring.. and Gandalf the Grey who stepped up, conquered the Shadow and became Gandalf the White. When the Maiar came to Middle-earth in the beginning of time they seemed to choose each their path.. or carreer so to say. And they've had quite the time to perfect their studies..
Tom might as well have been a Maia and chosen his own little land and to shut out the rest of the world. Perhaps he works his power around the Shire... Maybe he has been the bolwerk betwen the Old Forest and the Shire, or the Barrow-Downs and the Shire.. Haha, it's interesting what stories you can make up when you let your mind run free.. I only just mentioned that Tom might have been the sticked-on plotline that Tolkien might have wanted to expand on.. and now I'm completely carried away with the story and universe. I mean.. Mr. Tolkien, Creator of Middle-earth might not even have thought so far about Bombadil.. but I love how we can still discuss the meaning and interpretations and make up our own connections and explanations to everthing in his books.

Also, I like the way Tom is a Master.. like you said.. his power is in his song, but also, he is very different from all the other Lords, masters and powerful beings we meet later on. Man and beast seem to obey him simply because they want to.. because one cannot think a sad or evil thought when he is near.. The way it is described that the ponies seemed to like their new names better.. I imagine they liked the new names either because Tom knew their True Names (which Hobbit or man wouldn't know), or because they had such great love for Tom that they would treasure everything he gave away... umm ranting.. sorry, got carried away again...

The WHIGHTS.. scariest chapter ever.. I've already talked at length about this.. but seriously.. what's with the hand? How do you picture it? Like literally having a creepy skeleton hand come crawling towards them? And how do you imagine that the hobbits ended up in the barrows? This is truly where our imaginations can roam free. I think maybe.. that Merry and Pippin and Sam got lost in the fog, perhaps heard strange voices calling to them that were putting them into a trance so that they might have walked right into the barrow and put on the clothes themselves and prepared for the ritual.. Because I imagine the whights being... spirits.. ghosts without substance.. and then there is this skeleton hand and it doesn't fit my picture...

The thing with FATTY... I would have wanted Tolkien to elaborate on that part. So he goes to sound the bell and wake up all of the Shire but then what?? It's not like the hobbits go to chase out the riders.. so it's basically just Fatty running around shouting about an enemy that only very few people in the Shire might have seen and understood what was.. Wouldn't the rest of the hobbits just think he was mad?? But I agree that it's a great act of courage.. to be the person left behind when he has realised the danger... as a reader I can understand that.. But I'm disappointed that Tolkien doesn't seem to follow up...

And yes, it makes more and more sense to have taken GLORFINDEL on the mission.. quest.. thing... he is one of the great elf lords, he is one of the last ones left in Middle-earth who can still ride against the Nine.. why on earth did Elrond not choose him for the Fellowship?!!! And yes.. for dramaturgical purposes he might not and yadda yadda.. but it just doesn't make sense to have such a powerful person and not have him accompany the ring. If only Arwen had been the one to ride out to find them.. then I might have understood why Elrond wouldn't allow her to go on this mission.. okay.. rambling again.. I can see why Arwen shouldn't go either.. but you know.. it just doesn't make sense..

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It's funny, but Elrond thought as you do about Glorfindel.

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I know, I know.. *sigh* And it made good sense when I read it.. It's just.. and I guess it comes down to Gandalf's wisdom again, which I mentioned in the other thread. Who could foresee at the time of the Council that it was truly in stealth that the Ring would be borne into Mordor and be destroyed? Not even Gandalf, though he must have had a vague idea of it... But not even the wise can see all ends.
But yeah, it would have been a different story altogether if Glorfindel had gone with them.

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The whole Elrond vs. Gandalf debate over who should be part of the Fellowship is so fascinating. Because Elrond's choice makes so much sense. Glorfindel (or whoever he sent) could be secret, and quick, and quiet, and he's so powerful that IF they got into trouble he'd obviously be a great help. I don't think Elrond was necessarily wrong for thinking that, I just think Gandalf was more right. That somehow his time among the Hobbits had given him this insight and discernment that allowed him to see past the obvious choice of Glorfindel and put his faith in friendship and loyalty.

I guess Aragorn was right when he said that Gandalf had been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and "this is his victory."

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The thing is just... why just Nine companions? It is never explained.. add Glorfindel to the company and have ten going.. (They're gonna lose Boromir soon anyway! )

But since Elrond the Wise has chosen the number to be Nine I like to believe there is some power or magic in the number Nine - to match the number of the Ringwraiths.. otherwise.. it doesn't make sense from a strategic viewpoint!!

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Yeah, the Nine Companions seem suitable since they're going out against the Nine Ringwraiths. Like a matching sortie from the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'.

I just like how Gandalf spending so much time among the Hobbits and the little people of Middle-Earth, which Saruman scorned him for, turned out to be the edge that allowed him to single out the less obvious choice as the better one. I guess like you said, Ea, that's his wisdom.

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