This week we're aiming to finish Chapter V (of Book II), The Bridge of Khazad-Dum.

1.) Saruman advises Gandalf that their best choice would be to join with the 'new Power' that is rising so 'to direct its course, to control it.' To what extent is the main theme of the Lord of the Rings power, its uses and abuses, and its consequences?

2.) What are the implications of Aragorn's statement to his companions after the loss of Gandalf: "We must do without hope"? To what extent will hope only hinder the Company in its mission?

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

And again, thoughts then to questions.

When Frodo wakes up, his first question about his companions is about Sam. Which I think says a lot about the evolving relationship. He already relies more on Sam than he did at the beginning of the last book, and continues to do so from here on out.

Gandalf says:

which I LOVE. Here we've had a full chapter of Frodo almost becoming a wraith, and the black riders on his tail the whole time, and him nearly dying....but the barrow was the most dangerous. It's even *more* chilling than it already was.

And his description of Frodo is beautiful. "He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." I think there can be so much symbolism there, and also there's a clear connection to Galadriel's star glass.

Another great bit of Tolkien humor: Saruman's robes are now 'of many colors', and Gandalf says, "I liked white better."

Interestingly, Saruman says that they need to join with the new Power, because they need to order things "for that good which only the Wise can see." It's quite a contrast to, many chapters ago, Gandalf's "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." What's chilling in what Saruman says, is that many people now use some of the same reasoning, and it makes sense. Going for a high and ultimate purpose, no real change in designs....I can see some of that in politics now.



Two great lines.


I like that this is brought up here, by the elves, before they go further. Because despair is such a huge player by the end, with Denethor consumed by it and Theoden not choosing it. There's so much going on with despair and folly in this.


YAY HOBBITS!

And now we get more of the loyalty of the hobbits, where Merry and Pippin say it is punishment to them not to get to go, no matter what dark place they're going to.


Good words to live by. They know they're going into hard things, but allow themselves to enjoy the good days they have.


Frodo takes it too much to heart. No seriously, he does really, really go without hope. It's depressing. But for the rest, what would they hope for? That Gandalf would return? It seems like an impossible hope. They can only hope to do what they can, in the time they can. Their hope for the destruction of the Ring is a fool's hope, and Aragorn is not a fool. (Still, they were proven wrong. Which, I think, is a way of Tolkien saying 'there is always hope'.)


I'd say it's a pretty big theme. The power of the ring-bearers, the power of the Ring, the power of evil, the power of good, the power of Aragorn, the power of other leaders....Each one of these is addressed and shows how each deals with, and responds to, their power.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier, there's also the theme of fellowship and working together. Which has a power of its own, but is very different from THE POWER that Saruman and Saruon think of.

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going on a journey through my old claims

Hahahah, your love for the hobbits is so true and loyal, Nurr.

SAM: He is such a great mind-reader and he understands the importance of the quest and Frodo's mind even better than Frodo himself does at times. It especially shows later on. He is like the body and the legs and Frodo is the mind and the head.. sometimes Frodo seems too much occupied with his dark thoughts and ponderings over love, life and the Universe... like how he might escape the Shire in secret, and then it turns out Sam has already known for years.. and not only that, he also understand the importance of the mission.

I know I'm skipping ahead a bit but now you brought up the theme of HOPE and DESPAIR. I will also mention FATE. Because it is stressed many times that each person might have a part to play in all this. Gollum might yet have a part to play before everything is over and Gandalf is aware of and respecting Gollum's fate. He doesn't want to interfere and turn the tides himself.. I think (or I choose to believe ) that Gandalf knows that not even the Maiar can change the fate of the world. Saruman believes he can, that's what corrupted him. He believes that the Ring will give him power to make things right when in reality the Ring would inevitably work towards its own dark purposes. It makes good sense.. but imagine being Gandalf and having to make right from wrong.. What signs did he read? I guess that's the difference between being Wise and just being logical...

Alright, my point with all this was this that the greatest hope lies in the fact that it seems to be Frodo's fate to have the Ring and to bear it.. and that is basically what gives him (or Gandalf as it is) hope that he might succeed in this doomed mission. That is the hope in despair. The hope they cannot hope for.


What do you guys think of all the old, ancient creatures and powers the Fellowship meets after they leave Rivendell? The Watcher, Caradhras, the Balrog... What has stirred them? Are they under Sauron's command (or Saruman's)? Because like Shelob they do seem like they are old (ancient in fact. ) enough to be their own masters and not care too much about the world.. Do you think they act of their own account? But they do seem to go for Frodo, which Gandalf also remarks when the WATCHER seizes Frodo first among the Fellowship. And the BALROG.. a balrog ranks just below the Maiar in power (or is it just on A-U? ) so what kind of co-existance do you think it has with the orcs and goblins in Moria? Do they act as its servants?
And CARADHRAS.. there were foul voices in the air. In the movie it is clearly Saruman who commands the wind and the weather. But in the book it's more of an open question. Do you think that the mountain is opposing them such as Gimli suggests when he says that old Caradhras defeats them, or is it again the will of evil powers from Mordor (or Isengard) who has urged the mountain to rise agains the Fellowship?

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>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<



Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara

Hmm...I don't think the orcs would act as the Balrog's servants, mainly because I can't imagine what he would need servants for. I would imagine they'd just try to avoid him as much as possible...? But maybe I'm just remembering the film, when the orcs all flee as soon as the Balrog shows up.

It is interesting that the Watcher goes after Frodo first. I couldn't say if it was in league with or under Sauron's authority. I think it's Gandalf who talks about how Sauron is drawing all evil towards him, and maybe he has some way of communicating with that thing. Maybe it sensed the Ring and wanted It for its own?



I really wish we had a scene with everybody trying to win Sam over; I imagine it would've been hard at first because he already is extremely protective of Frodo.



In an earlier chapter, when Frodo was still in the Shire, there's a mention of Frodo poring over maps and wondering what lay beyond the edges. We all (or at least I do) have this sense that Frodo has a bit of a wander-lust, and a desire for adventure in him, and Frodo certainly seemed to think so too. Yet here he says that it's enough, that he doesn't want to go on. I wonder if Frodo himself was wrong about what he thought he wanted; if he was really content with the Shire in his deepest heart, and didn't realize it until it was too late?



I never realized how dark this is before. If Elrond hadn't gotten the splinter out, what would they have done? They surely wouldn't have just left Frodo as a wraith, which leaves me thinking that they would have had to kill him. That would make a fascinating AU. Frodo dead, Sam and Merry and Pippin grieving, no Ringbearer... And who would have done it? Gandalf? Elrond?



I love you I love you I love you!!! So much headcanon on this woman. Could write a 400 page book on my ~feeeelings~.



Bilbo, you shipper.



A little book//movie comparison here. In the book, it seems to be Frodo who suddenly...imagines Bilbo as this greedy person, as someone who's going to grasp the Ring and take it from him. Frodo is the one who's under the influence of the Ring; it has a hold on him such that he suddenly sees Bilbo as this grasping creature and feels animosity towards him. The Ring is influencing the way Frodo perceives Bilbo, once a very trusted friend, whom he now feels 'a desire to strike'.

In the movie, they seem to switch attitudes; Frodo is reluctant, but it's Bilbo who turns into this greedy grasping creature, and makes a lunge for the Ring (which doesn't happen in the book; in the book Bilbo merely 'puts out his hand'). In the movie scene he actually lunges for it. It's Bilbo whom the Ring seems to be influencing the most. Am I being clear? Does anyone else get what I'm saying?

EDIT:

Forgot two things. One, in the book Gloin is actually sent to Elrond because the Dwarves 'crave his advice.' That's very interesting, considering we make such a big deal out of the Dwarves vs. Elves antagonism. Elrond seems to be the type of guy that both sides can respect and trust.



YAY HOBBITS!

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

Yeah, I think that might be it... I would think that all the ancient creatures of the earth were answering to no master or lord... but since their purposes were.. well.. as it has been laid out.. evil.. and inclined to side with Mordor if anyone, Sauron might have summoned them in a sort of .. letting the drums carry his message through the lands.. just like Elrond is sending messages out to everyone on his team.




This is interesting, I hadn't thought of it before.. but it makes sense.. both in book and movie.. and perhaps because it makes so much sense I didn't notice... hahaha, now does that make sense?
But the question is from whose perspective we see it in the movie. We believe it's from Frodo's.. who sees dear old Bilbo turn bad.. but in reality we might not know that what we're seeing is Frodo imagining things because the Ring already has a hold on him.. Just like Frodo hasn't realised it yet.

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>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<



Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara