I know people generally don't like imagining the "what ifs" of any situation, but this intriguing idea came to me the other day after watching RotK, and I couldn't shake it off.I had been mooning over the extremely short Faramir/Eowyn scenes and decided I'd go to ff.net to see if any fan fiction featuring the couple could be scrounged up for reading. [Blasphemous, I know. Turns out I didn't find much of anything.] However, one story did stick with me, titled "Five Things That Never Happened to Eowyn and Faramir" by Altariel. In it, the author presents five scenarios faced by Eowyn and Faramir that never appear in the books, movies, or most fan fiction. The one that caught my eye was this idea that the Quest had failed; that Frodo had failed to destroy the Ring.

So, here's my question: What implication does that have? Obviously, LotR is supposed to have a "happy" ending; they're supposed to succeed in the quest of good vs evil. But what, if any, hints does Tolkien give us that point to a world where the Ring is once again in the hands of Sauron?

I'm interested to here your thoughts and any books quotes you can offer.

Thats an interesting question. The only things that came to mind was the time Frodo looked into Galadriel's fountain, and when Pippin looked into the palantir, so i checked in the books but those events aren't in there, they were added into the movie. The only things I found during my quick skim through was stories characters have told about how things were when Sauron had the ring, and how they believe things would be if Sauron got the ring again. I would like to know if anyone can find anything besides the stories characters told.

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Wed Killian Jones (Captain Hook) 4/20/13

I agree with Lithoniel. I think the question you posed has a lot deeper of a meaning the more you think about it. there are probably some very subtle allusions in the book that hint at what the world would be like if Sauron had the Ring, though at this minute I can't recall any. I think this possibility is always very real and in the forefront of the Fellowship members' minds, though - especially those of Frodo and Sam. why else would they have sacrificed so much unless they knew or had some instinctive premonition of what might happen should the Ring fall to Sauron? this urge to destroy the Ring becomes so strong that they are willing to die themselves in order to preserve everyone else from a fate controlled by evil. In the tower of Cirith Ungol, Frodo believes that "it is all over" because they have the Ring. perhaps, as illustrated in the movie, those fighting at the gates of Mordor glimpse a bit of what it might be like, when destruction seems imminent, and even afterwards when the mountain is crumbling in front of them.
I don't think Tolkien intended for the book to have an intrinsically "happy" ending, however. although the Ring is destroyed, many aspects of the story do not meet with happiness. do the Ents find the Entwives? is the enduring character of Frodo spared from pain or painful memories as a result of his quest? does Sam get to enjoy the presence of his best friend with whom he endured so much? Theoden and Boromir have departed. not much of the happiness is truly complete. I think this is a good, realistic example. the best ending might not be what everyone wants or free from heartbreak.

kinda long, I know, and probably only half-relevant. but I usually say what comes to mind, and that's it.

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thanks for the Hobbit Team banner, Lembas!

Actually, wow, thats pretty good. i never thought of LotR not really having a truly happy ending, but your right, its kind of bittersweet for some characters.

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Wed Killian Jones (Captain Hook) 4/20/13

that's what struck me most about all of Tolkien's works, which is nice because it doesn't end up in your usual cake and icing way. despite it's bittersweet endings, it's refreshing to read a book that's so out of the ordinary.

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thanks for the Hobbit Team banner, Lembas!

Frodo definantly did not have a pleasant life after the destroying of the ring. As Bilbo said to Frodo in Rivendell: "I am so sorry this evil has to come on you too, my boy." So, evidently, Bilbo did not live "happily to the end of his days", as he said he was going to.

well, I'm sure that after their departure to the Grey Havens, they were able to live happily. I've always thought that the reason they went to the Havens was because they were unable to find peace and normality in their lives after the age of the Ring, especially Frodo. (as in his quote, "How does one pick up the threads... etc.") though the love for his friends was not in the least diminished, he knew he would find what he was really looking for in a place that wasn't Middle Earth.

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thanks for the Hobbit Team banner, Lembas!

What about Sam then? He lived quite happily. He got married and had children and still took care of his "master Frodo".

but Frodo left to the Grey Havens after a while. granted he was happy, but not as happy as could be expected, because Frodo had left. it wasn't really complete.

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thanks for the Hobbit Team banner, Lembas!

You mean Sam?

What about the wizards? Did Gandalf get to go to Valinor because he had one of the elven rings or because he was a wizard?

Frodo was probably the least happy of the group, since he was the one who had to carry the ring and deal with all the issues that came with it, in terms of feeling drained and the times it was trying to corrupt him and make him put it on. That had to be a draining experience for him, and there's no going back to how you normally were before the Ring. and I'm not sure about Gandalf, I'm leaning towards the elven ring being his reason to go to Valinor though.

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Wed Killian Jones (Captain Hook) 4/20/13

Gandalf returned to Valinor because he was the only wizard to stay true to his task. Five Maia were selected by the Valar to be emissaries to the free peoples of Middle-earth. They were forbidden to show displays of power and to seek to rule; they were there to guide and provide council. Of the five, it is obvious that Saruman failed as he sought to obtain the Ring and use it to rule. Of the two blue wizards little is known, but the went east with Saruman and never returned. Saruman returned but spoke of the others to no one. Radagast concerned himself little with the affairs of Elves and Men, and worried about the animals.

The wizards pass back to Valinor was based on the success of their mission, and Gandalf was the only one to succeed. So to answer your question: Gandalf didn't get to GO to Valinor, he was allowed to RETURN because of his actions. The fact that he had one of the Elven rings of power was irrelevant (although it probably did help him in his journey)

As far as the question of the OP goes, I think that Faramir and Eowyn would have died fighting alongside each other in the Houses of Healing. Sauron's armies would eventually (sooner rather than later I would assume) reach Minis Tirith. This time there would be no Riders of Rohan coming to their aid, no army of the dead, and Sauron would be at the head of the army instead. The levels would fall one by one and the Faramir and Eowyn would stand side by side and confront the orcs, possibly Sauron himself, and died together.

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Sig by Legolas

"What? In riddles? No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to." -Gandalf

Why did Radagast not get to go then??
He acted as Gandalfs messenger sometimes..
Were his actions not good enough to return to Valinor?

Not sure whether or not Radagast returned, nothing I've come across says either way. Perhaps I'll break out Unfinished Tales if I get a chance and see if it says anything in there. It is possible that he did return to Valinor, just at a different time than Gandalf.

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Sig by Legolas

"What? In riddles? No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to." -Gandalf

It says something about the five wizards in one of the books of THe History of Middle Earth.
I think it is book 6.

Book 6 I believe starts the trilogy inside of the series that covers the writing process that the LotR underwent, do not believe that it covered much of lore, so I would have to say maybe you're thinking of 5 then?

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Sig by Legolas

"What? In riddles? No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to." -Gandalf