Did I get behind? How did this happen? I must have skipped an entire week. This is crazy talk. Shall we combine the next two weeks? This week, try to finish The Two Towers. This is all Frodo, Sam, and Faramir and I look forward to some more hobbity goodness.

Discussion Questions:

1.) In what ways, as it seems to Sam, are Frodo and Gollum "in some way akin and not alien"? What accounts for their similarites and their differences?

2.) What lineage does Faramir claim, and how is it related to Aragorn's lineage? Why do you think Tolkien places so much emphasis on his chief characters' family histories and ancestries?

3.) What moves Sam to decide that he has to go on, to see it through, even though doing so is "altogether against the grain of his nature"? How do you explain Sam's dedication, courage, and decisiveness? What is there about Sam that enables him to "walk and bear his burden?"

And finally...

4.) What towers give the second part of The Lord of the Rings its title?

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

I may not answer the questions but some thoughts...

I LOVE this part of TTT. I love Sam and Frodo' journey, because its so intense, even if we don't see a lot of action per se until we get to Cirith Ungol. The Marshes...plain awesomness. I think that two hobbits had to eat their hearts during this trip. That had to be so difficult, having Gollum around and not trusting him and trusting him at the same time. I understand Sam: he cared for Frodo and wanted to do everything to protect him and he had this little creature all the time around.

I remember the part when they were hiding in some hole and there were liquid thing, multi-colored and oily...I think that was really...modern

Faramir...he was mostly wiser than Boromir. I love the part when he felt the urge of the Ring and he overcame it. He had strong will. Also, this Faramir, other than movie Faramir, touches my heart.

The road to Cirith Ungol...again, very difficult journey, up and up and up. Frodo was feeling the weight of the Ring stronger and stronger.

And the Shelob herself. I love her descriptions, almost pervy Sam showed so much bravery to fight her alone and being victorious actually. I think that was the love for Frodo that made him do it. He wasn't the wisest of hobbits but knew what is good and right. The light of Galadriel helped him much he was indeed the "great elven warrior" that orcs were desribing.

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Hmm I'm confused... so this thread is for Frodo and Sam's journey from Emyn Muil and to the end of TTT, right?

Like I said before Frodo and Sam's journey is far from my favorite in the book. However, Tolkien does a very good job in describing the hardship of the journey. The despair when they can't find their way out of the Emyn Muil, the difficult choice of trusting Gollum as their guide, the unfriendly landscape and the lack of food. The dreadful days in the Dead Marshes and the constant thread of being spied by the enemy.

Alright, so I've actually bookmarked a lot of places with Faramir but I don't remember why so I'll skip to Cirith Ungol and to the Nazgûl who inhabit the city. How do you imagine the Nazgûl, what are they like physically, what are their powers? In FotR they are described as formless so they have to wear black clothes to give them shape and they need their horses to take them around. In TTT they have risen, they are stronger than ever and are Sauron's most powerful and trusted servants. But appearance.. do you think they have physical bodies? What exactly are their powers? Are they like nine Aragorns'?
And Sauron, what's he like? Why is he only described as a Great Eye.. surely Tolkien could have spent a little more time to tell us of his main baddie... How do you picture Sauron?


How do Sauron communicate with his Nazgûl in Minas Morgul? It's not like he can fax his memo to them.. here's a quote from the book when Frodo and Sam and Gollum has reached the beginning of the Stairs of Cirith Ungol:



I love when they have climbed the stairs and entered Mordor and how dark everything seems and Sam talks about great adventures and how he imagines them being in one. It's so sad and touching. They know they are walking to their doom and still they find the courage to go on in attempt to fulfil an impossible mission.


I love the part with Shelob (which quite odd as I hate spiders), the way Tolkien describes her as this old, malicious creature, the Queen of the pass of Cirith Ungol.

And of course Sam's Choice after he fought Shelob. It's heart-wrenching. But it always surprises me how little he is affected by the Ring when during the short time he bears it. After all, he wears it a good long time and they are so close to Sauron..

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FIRST: quote time! Fwee! Okay, so TTT is my favorite book, and aside from The Taming of Smeagol/The Passage of the Marshes I zoom through it.


This quote...is just perfect. To anyone trying to figure out all of Tolkien's (possible) parallels to war, I think this is his clearest statement of all. "He did not like it much."



I love this little glimpse into Faramir's character. We don't know much about him yet, just that he's found Frodo and is deciding what to do with him. But this shows just how much of a person he is, and what we can expect from him.



Frodo, you are such a downer! He really is full of despair during a lot of the last two books. If it wasn't for Sam, he probably would have died from not eating or something. But what I thought was really interesting about this quote was how similar it is to Denethor. Frodo sees what he has to do as hopeless and ending in death, going to his doom. And he tells Faramir to go and do what he can while he can, but to let Frodo go to his doom. Just interesting to me.

Oh, here we go:

THAT QUOTE.


D'awww, look at them being all awesome and perfect.

And again:


I won't type up the entire thing about Sam and the Great Stories, because it's two pages long. But, to take Sam's ending:

I love this bit. It totally reminds you of who hobbits are. We've had a full book of them doing great deeds, and then Sam reminds us that all they came from, and all they really want again, is to be back in the Shire with their gardens and food and beds.


SUCH a great description of Gollum. It really humanizes (hobbitizes?) him more than anything else, to me. The fact that he almost decides to not give them to Shelob, and just the old and weary hobbit. It really draws the connection between them all.

And on! To the Choices of Master Samwise, perhaps my favourite chapter of them all. A bit of a random thought, but when Sam speaks in Elvish and "his tongue was loosed and his voice cried in a language which he did not know" it made me think of speaking in tongues.



Oh Sam. My dear Sam.

4.) What towers give the second part of The Lord of the Rings its title?
I've always thought personally that it's Minas Arnor and Minas Tirith.

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going on a journey through my old claims

I LOVE THIS QUOTE. People growing to respect and admire each other (especially two people on opposite sides or just unalike or at odds or what have you) is one of my favourite things of all the things in all the lands. See: my fangirling over Mr. Thornton and Higgins in Elizabeth Gaskell's North and South.



I find this such a Sam thing to say; to just sort of soldier on, refusing to really contemplate death or darkness. He's going to stick with Frodo through thick and thin, and of course that includes countering Frodo's doom and gloom mindset. Enough of that pessimism, Frodo! We're not dead yet!



Okay, confession: I am a secret Gollum fangirl. This scene is one of the only scenes in the book that makes me cry. I think I've mentioned this before, but Tolkien did plan to have Gollum...well Gollum still took the Ring from Frodo at the end, because he needed It, but Gollum also understood that It had to be destroyed and so to save Frodo Gollum voluntarily casts himself into the fire, destroying the Ring and killing himself in the process. But it just breaks my heart to see that Frodo was almost right when he said that he needed to know Gollum could come back (I can't remember if it's book and movie or only movie). But Frodo's kindness and the fact that he treated Gollum with some dignity and respect just obviously meant so much to Gollum.





Sam is such a hero. His steadfast resolution and his courage and his loyalty and his plain old hobbit sense and nonsense.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

Nurr, I love you, I'm so happy you typed up (or copy/pasted!) all those Faramir quotes. I love the way Tolkien writes his character. You can truly see how much Tolkien cared for Faramir from the affectionate way he describes him. I do miss that he had spent the same time describing Boromir the same elaborated way. Boromir is described by Denethor and Faramir who both love him, but not much is said about his motives and emotions and why he acts as he does, which sort of makes him a more two-dimensional character. He is a warrior and lives by the sword. End of. But then again, Tolkien is
going to kill him off pretty soon anyway...

[And I agree that Frodo is so unbearble gloomy and angsty most of the time in Mordor.. but I shall rant much more about that in the RotK threads! ]



I agree that the scene is touching but Gollum is still Gollum - and more so than he is Smeagol. He has had the Ring for too long to be saved or cured, even Sam who only carried it for a short time wasn't left unmarked by its power. Gollum didn't take the Ring from Frodo out of pity or a deeper understanding of his mission, Gollum simply took it because he was overcome with desire and couldn't resist the Ring. And he didn't sacrifice himself, he simply tripped and fell... At least that is my understanding. I'm curious to why you think that Gollum does it for the Greater Good?

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*phew* That's a lot of quotes!

Oh, no no no no no. No, I'm not actually talking about the published novel; sorry I wasn't clear. It was in one of Tolkien's letters, and he mentioned that in an earlier draft of the story, Gollum, the Gollum side of Gollum, needed the Ring and so he took it from Frodo, but the Smeagol side also loved Frodo, and so threw himself into the Cracks of Doom to save Frodo. That's not actually canon. I totally agree with you that in the actual story, Gollum did not sacrifice himself; he tripped and he fell. I was just stating my wistful longing for Tolkien's discarded ending.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

Oh.. I see now.. sorry. Actually, I read your post twice to be sure I got it right.. and still I got it wrong... But yeah, it's really interesting to have a look at Tolkien's earlier drafts. And the actual book scenes still tell us a lot about Gollum/Smeagol's struggle with.. himself. It's just brilliantly written. Poor Gollum, poor tricksy, false Gollum who was destroyed by the Ring.

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>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<



Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara