So this week we read through Chapter X, The Black Gate. Takes us through the Battle of Pelennor Fields (with Merry and Eowyn being all ) and up to major battle 2.0.

1.) How would you explain Denethor's despair and unwillingness to cede Gondor to the rightful claimant? How do grief, hunger for power, envy, pride, and vanity affect his attitude? What other examples are there of negative qualities transforming otherwise good and noble individuals?

2.) Mourning Theoden in the Houses of Healing, Merry apologizes to Aragorn for his sarcasm by saying "But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place." What does he mean? What other instances are there of hobbits using light words and jests in serious times?

3.) What do you think gave Eowyn the courage to stand up to the Lord of the Nazgul? And (this is skipping ahead a bit, maybe) do you agree with Tolkien that she was not really an 'amazon woman' at heart, but a woman of great courage who rose up in a time of need? Was she a true soldier who settled for a calm life, or did circumstances only make her think she wanted to be a true soldier? Or neither? I just never took the time to figure Eowyn out and now I'm realizing I don't know where to start.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

1.) I think Denethor had seen the plans and the moves of the Enemy through the palantir and had fallen in despair. He was sure of the Enemy's victory and thought that everything they did was in vain. Plus, Gondor had stayed so long without a king, that the steward was not willing to cede the kingdom to the rightful claimant (a.k.a. Aragorn). Other examples of negative qualities transforming otherwise good and noble individuals are definitely Boromir, son of Denethor and, of course, Saruman.

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If you're referring to the incident with the Dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door.

I think Denethor just wanted to actuallz save Gondor but failed in game with Sauron. I think it because he was weaker than he though he was. He was sure that he will just make it right, sure for his wit and intelligence and strenght of spirit.

Eowyn...she is still mystery to me. I think she was warrior by blood, not by circumstances. She always was like that and she WANTED to be like that.

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Yes, I think Denethor underestimated his own fortitude. He actually reminds me a bit of Frodo here, the way he simply gave up hope. The difference is that Frodo continued on anyways, and Denethor decided it wasn't worth it.

In terms of Denethor's unwillingness to cede the throne.... There's a lot that goes into that, I think.

1.) Denethor knew Aragorn from way back; Aragorn served under Ecthelion, Denethor's father, (in disguise, but Denethor found out, or at least suspected) and kinda stole all the people's heart as the mysterious, heroic Captain who saved the day. That envy, and feeling of inferiority, seems to have festered a bit? And now that Denethor is in fact The Steward (and de facto ruler) of Gondor, the idea of giving it all up and perhaps losing the people's hearts again, to the same guy, was just unthinkable.

2.) He...kinda has a point? I was super into this whole 'is Aragorn really the rightful heir' stuff a couple years ago, and so I read all up on it and it's really not that clearcut. I do obviously think that the return of the King is an extremely suitable ending, and it makes for beautiful reading and there's this sense of rejuvenation and renewal and it's all lovely, but the Council of Gondor had been through this all before like 500 years BEFORE Aragorn, and they said no thanks to the Heir that time. So Denethor has history on his side. They'd been through this before and they'd given their answer.

3.) Pride. Grief over Boromir's death; Boromir was supposed to succeed him and now he's dead and here's this Ranger trying to, in a sense, take his place.



See, I think I almost agree with you. At least it was a combination; I don't quite agree with Tolkien's comment that she was 'not really an 'amazon woman'...but like many strong women capable of great deeds in a crisis' (it's a grotesque paraphrase, sorry.)

I'm skipping ahead, but in The Houses of Healing, Gandalf says to Eomer: "My friend...you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage." I think Eowyn was a fierce, proud, loyal, wild, stern, courageous woman. And the fact that she was forced to sit back, forced to stand by while her country was falling to ruin, forced to watch and do nothing-I think that amplified her desire to be a shieldmaiden. It was always there, but the circumstances made it irresistable.

"Man!" cried Pippin, now thoroughly roused, "Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more violent than I am a man, save perhaps now and again by necessity. Do not let Gandalf deceive you."

The quintessential hobbit?

Why does Tolkien suddenly switch focus to Gimli during the Paths of the Dead? We never really get into his head, the story's never told from his POV before now, and suddenly we're seeing things through his eyes. Also: why is he so afraid? Why do the Paths affect him so much? I'd never noticed it before but I find it rather confusing.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

There is so much fighting in RotK.. It's all very epic. EPIC!!! With spears shaken and shields shattered and all. But am I the only one who gets just a tiny bit bored with the battles in the end..? So much shining mail and bright swords and keen, stern faces all over the place. No? No.. well, on we go then. Forth Éorlingas! DEATH!

I kinda understand why poor Denethor wouldn't just give up the stewardship to any random ranger. Just like Elrond wouldn't just give up his daughter to some random ranger. At least not before he had shown his worth.
It can't have been easy being Denethor.. having fought Sauron all his life must be really tiresome. Now he lost his son, the view from the palantir wasn't exactly the best, and everything and everybody turns against him - quite depressing really. How he reminds me of.. my granddad...

It's really interesting to ponder what would have happened if Denethor didn't kill himself. I don't think he would have taken it lightly that Aragorn bore the banner of the tree and displayed the colours of the king. But fortunately, Tolkien solves all this beautifully!



I love this quote. This says so much of hobbits and it shows much of their true nature as serious and caring under the cover of being teasing and playful.

Also, when Pippin finds Merry wounded after the battle..
Merry: 'Help me, Pippin! It's all going dark again, and my arm is so cold.'
Pippin: 'Lean on me, Merry lad!' said Pippin. 'Come now. Foot by foot. It's not far'
Merry: 'Are you going to bury me?' said Merry.
It breaks my heart... (which is another reason you should not read the books in public.. you tend to get looks when you're all tearing up at the gate in the airport...)

[warning: rant ahead] I think Eowyn is rather interesting.. She has potential to be a great character.. especially being a woman in a war like this and coming from a warrior culture. But at the end of the day, I don't think Tolkien manages to 'complete' her. He gives such a one-sided description of her and he clearly does not understand women! At first he makes her really needy and whiny and wanting Aragorn, and then he has her ride to war because of some vague princess-pouting motives - and THEN she slays the Witch-king [much cheering] - nicely done! But what happens afterwards? Yup, she goes all pouty again in the Houses of Healing until Faramir saves her.. It bugs be to no end.. I don't know if it borders a Madonna/*beep* complex.. or perhaps just a Mary Sue but it just looks like she's such a one-dimensional character and she deserves better than that. I would rather that Tolkien didn't write any female characters at all.. I think he tries to build her up and then betrays her.. [/rant]

True, it's interesting that we get to see Paths of the Dead through Gimli's eyes... perhaps that is the only reason why Tolkien brought Gimli on the Path.. I mean Legolas was no good since he wasn't afraid of the dead. I believe he changes POV in order to emphasise the uneasiness and fear connected to taken this Path.. and ultimately to make Aragorn look cool.. since he could master beast and man and make them go on even if they were on the verge of breaking down. Go Aragorn!

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Haha, I came on here JUST to squee about how perfect the Battle of Pelennor Fields is. It showcases what makes RotK my favourite book; my emotions run the whole spectrum from exhilaration to grief to suspense to awe to anger at the stupid Rohirric minstrel who couldn't be bothered to mention Halbarad in his little 'praise the dead' song. Would it kill you to branch out from Rohan and Gondor? There are other people in the world, you know. Like, oh, say, Merry. If it wasn't for him your White Lady would be dead. /end rant.

Okay, some quote spammage:



Chills down my spine. Especially the last part, when Tolkien describes the horns of the Rohirrim echoing in the mountains. That being said, it always feels a bit anti-climactic to go from this confrontation back to the muster and ride of the Rohirrim. We already know they get there, and at that point I just want to finish the battle!







Okay, Ea, with that kind of post, you know you're asking for a response. I wouldn't call myself an Eowyn fan; even though I do really love her, I don't really understand her. But I'm working on it.

Anyways...I'll just start out by saying that yeah, Eowyn does suffer from Tolkien's chosen style of writing; we never see things from her side. She doesn't really have a voice. We learn about her by how she affects other people and by what others choose to tell us about her.

But from what we can understand of her, I don't think she rides to war because of 'princess-pouting motives.' She grew up, a high-born lady, of high courage and spirit, and was closed up in a role that she didn't want and didn't belong in. She watched her country and her family fall into disrepute and ruin, and she was helpless; not because she wasn't able to do anything to help, but because she wasn't allowed to. I think she probably felt extremely claustrophobic, shut down, shut away. After years of this, when a mysterious, kingly man comes riding out of the sunset and her country suddenly has hope again, she transfers this feeling of hope and courage and joy onto Aragorn, and falls in love with him. But nothing changes. They're still all going to die, and she's still stuck with her duty. So after years of despair and repression, and then a sudden outburst of courage and fierce joy, to be let down again was too much. The rollercoaster of emotions was too much. So she rode to war for about a billion different reasons: she wanted to protect her uncle, she wanted to break out of her cage, she wanted to die in battle, she wanted to save her country, she wanted to be remembered as something more than the girl in white behind the throne. And then, even after she killed the Witch King, she still hadn't achieved anything! Her uncle was dead. Her country was still going to fall. She was still alive, and still being left behind. I haven't quite figured out how Faramir breaks through that, but somehow he does. And I'll get to that once I think about it some more.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

Thanks for answering to the challenge, Minu.. Minuial.. Mini.. (do you have a nickname?) I knew I was in for replies to that post!

Alright, I didn't mean it quite so harshly. I actually did enjoy much of the battle scenes on Pelennor Fields... I think.. But after reading it after the TTT with the looong battle of Helm's Deep. But yeah, the Pelennor Fields has a more epic quality. I completely agree that there were a lot of heart-wrenchingly moving scenes and heroic deeds done on the battle fields that day. Théoden's death... it get's me every time.. both book and movie.

And then Éomer rides on:



You picked some great quotes.
True.. anti-climax when we go back to the mustering and ride of the Rohirrim in the middle of battle.. I sense it could have been done a little more elegant...
Regarding Gandalf and the Witchking... it always bothered me that they never got to cross blades.. and it bothered me that it seems that the Nazgûl is stronger than Gandalf and would have defeated him.. Gandalf is Maia after all... it shouldn't be that easy...

When Merry talks about never wanting to smoke again because it reminded him of Théoden.. aww.. tear tear... again...

Interesting to read your defence for Éowyn. I understand completely where you're coming from and this is also the way I usually read her into the story. The positive and the sense-making approach to a heroic female character with a will of steel and a heart of gold. However, she suffers greatly from the writing of her. I think it was Smaug (Morgana) who mentions elsewhere that Éowyn sounded rather young and naïve and clingy when talking to Aragorn. And I agree with her. If you read just what Tolkien wrote then she easily appears a bit naïve and stubborn. I think only Gandalf's words to Éomer about Éowyn having felt caged while caring for an old man is the only time we get a deeper insight into her character (though I do admit that Aragorn is close to the mark too when he talks to her and guesses her motives).
What I object to is how Tolkien writes her... perhaps it's a general thing that we only see the story through very few characters' POV or in the narrator's own voice.. and it tends to get a little.. well.. can I say biased about Tolkien's own story? It's hard to explain but I think it bothers me that we get such a fragmented description of Éowyn. Like you say, we're left to guess and she might have had so many reasons for going to war and reacting like she does. But the reason why we're left to guess is that Tolkien was so vague about her and hinted many different things. All the things you mentioned. And then.. with just a conversation and a wink from Faramir.. all her trouble is washed away and she is happy... it's being disrespectful to her as a character..

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