Rules      FAQ       Register        Login
It is currently April 19th, 2024, 10:43 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: ESRR: Cirith Ungol to the Field of Cormallen
PostPosted: August 14th, 2011, 1:24 pm 
Gondorian
Gondorian
User avatar

Joined: 19 October 2007
Posts: 376
Location: mmm...that way!
Country: Canada (ca)

Offline
This week we read through Chapter V, the Steward and the King.

1.) Why is it important that Gollum be responsible for the destruction of the Ring? Why does Frodo say, "But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring"? What otherwise would have enabled Frodo to destroy the Ring, and what might have been the consequences for Frodo?

_________________
~Set by Lembas~
Image
If we grow up we're all going to be famous.


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject: Re: ESRR: Cirith Ungol to the Field of Cormallen
PostPosted: August 28th, 2011, 4:27 am 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 04 June 2005
Posts: 12592
Gender: Female

Offline
I always think it's so interesting that Sam gets to be a Ring-bearer - and he's all Hobbit-like about it and quite un-affected... except he's not.. because being so close to Mordor and the Balck Tower the Ring already struggles to work its power on him. Gollum steals and murders for the Ring, Bilbo comes by it through rather questionable ways, Frodo inherits it and steps up to be an official Ring-bearer.. but Sam.. he just takes it because 'we can't have it lying around there on a dead Mr. Frodo'. Like if he was cleaning his garden back home. :)

In the chapter Mount Doom I can see why people become Sam-fans if they haven't been convinced already. :P Without him Frodo would have just quit the whole thing and found a quiet pit to die in. And while I think that Tolkien does go over the top with gloomy, depressive emo Frodo to the point where you just want to whack him (well, Frodo, not Tolkien) over the head.
Quote:
'Do you remember that bit of rabbit, Mr. Frodo?' he said. 'And our place under the warm bank in Captain Faramir's country, the day I saw an oliphant?'
'No, I'm afraid not, Sam' said Frodo. 'At least, I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me, I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.
I do believe it is necessary for our understanding of what it's like to hike through Mordor with a Ring of Doom. Also, it makes Sam's bravery and optimism so much more sad and joyful and very much needed. Tolkien absolutely gave the best monologues to Sam, so much WIN!! And we learn about Frodo's burden and the power of Sauron.. but it's just so... depressing...

And then enter Gollum!! I'm still wondering why Gollum eventually took the Ring back. He had sworn an oath on the Precious.. did he just forget about that when he realised what Frodo's intentions was or didn't he care anymore? Or was it the Gollum in him that claimed it back as 'his own'?
Also, do you think Gollum tripped because he broke the oath? So that somehow Frodo's words came true.. that he would meet his doom should he ever break his promise? I mean Gollum might as well just have run off with the Ring (and gotten caught by the Nazgûl and Sauron would have gotten the Ring back and destroyed Middle-earth. The end).

I really like how Frodo takes the Ring and claims it for his own at the very fires of Mount Doom (way to set up a dramatic climax, Tolkien!), history repeats itself nicely and it shows just how powerful the Ring is. I do wonder though if Sam would have pushed Frodo into the fire if he had to.. if that's why Tolkien/Gandalf made Sam go along.. because he had something to do before the end too. I believe Sam would have realised the danger, he would have understood the consequences if Frodo kept the Ring, and I like to believe that Sam would have made a Harry Potter/Voldemort in the Battle of Hogwarts and thrown himself in with Frodo.. He was brave enough and he was ready to die for the cause.

_________________
>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
Image

Image
Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject: Re: ESRR: Cirith Ungol to the Field of Cormallen
PostPosted: August 30th, 2011, 11:24 pm 
Gondorian
Gondorian
User avatar

Joined: 19 October 2007
Posts: 376
Location: mmm...that way!
Country: Canada (ca)

Offline
Ugh, don't say such awful things, Ea! :hide: Can you imagine how depressing it would be if Sam pushed Frodo in or pulled him in or what have you? But that's actually kind of intriguing, because I'm not sure if Sam actually would have done it. Think back to "The Choices of Master Samwise"; Sam does take the Ring from (he thinks) Frodo's dead body, but the instant he hears orcs, he races back to try and protect Frodo's dead body from being, I don't know, dishonoured. He chooses Frodo's dead body over continuing on with the Ring. He chooses Frodo's dead body over Middle-Earth, in a sense. It was more of a gut reaction than a conscious decision, but he still went back. He knows that the Ring needs to be destroyed-- that was the whole point of the chapter, Sam trying to figure out what his duty is now that Frodo's dead, and he decides his duty is to finish the Quest, but when it really comes down to it, he doesn't care, because his loyalty to Frodo trumps all. "Don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee. And I don't mean to." I think Sam is so loyal it's almost twisted. Maybe he's a Hufflepuff. :goofy:

Also: Frodo's gloom and doom mentality. I think it's rather tragic, of course; Frodo, who loved the Shire, and thought he wanted to go adventuring but then found out he was wrong and the Shire was his home after all and he wanted to go back but he couldn't, because this thing had gotten bigger than what he wanted, and he had to see it through. But I think Gandalf's death was the first blow and Amon Hen was the death stroke as far as holding onto any hope that he'd come out of this alive or even succeed in destroying the Ring. I can't really imagine what that would have been like, marching on into Mordor, completely convinced and resigned to the fact that sooner or later, you're going to be caught and killed. :'-( The idea of going on with no hope. I mean, we can chuckle a bit, (I know I do, sometimes) but the fact that he keeps going despite it all is, I think, a testament to his strength of will. It's generally against one's nature to continue on in a task that you know is going to fail and be for nothing.

Now, on to Sam! For Sam, in the beginning, it was very simple: Mr. Frodo was going into Mordor, and so that was where Sam was going. He didn't think too far ahead, other than to make vague plans for 'when it was all over'. He followed Mr. Frodo and he protected Mr. Frodo and that was that. But then, at the beginning of RotK, they switch roles, and now it's Sam leading and Frodo following in his footsteps. I think Sam's motivation was almost the same; Frodo had to destroy the Ring and he couldn't do it by himself so Sam had to help him. But Frodo is now following Sam's lead, and if Sam sat down or gave up, I think at that point Frodo would have as well.

*phew* Trying to understand hobbits is hard work. Nurr? Am I committing blasphemy?

_________________
~Set by Lembas~
Image
If we grow up we're all going to be famous.


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject: Re: ESRR: Cirith Ungol to the Field of Cormallen
PostPosted: September 3rd, 2011, 1:02 pm 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 04 June 2005
Posts: 12592
Gender: Female

Offline
I'm aware that it's such a hypothetical question because.. well, the story is written with what specific ending the author chose. So here is where we leave the average reader behind and go geek. :teehee: I was just wondering about Sam.. because when he turned to go back to a presumably dead Frodo they were still on the border of Mordor - there was still hope and at least Sam might have had a memory of sunshine and mushrooms and a cosy fire. It would have been easier to act rational. Whereas, after they had walked all across Mordor, fled and hid for days, almost been discovered by the company of orcs, having no food, no shelter.. Even Sam's spirit must have been on crutches at this point. I don't know... However, I'm sure he would understand that they would have to walk in a dead and barren Mordor forever - figuratively speaking - if Frodo kept the Ring. Which wouldn't be long, being on the threshold of Barad-dûr they probably wouldn't have to wait long before Sauron would come and ask to get his Precious back. So the question is down to how much trust you put in Sam's loyalty to Frodo here and there. And you might be right, that his love and care for Frodo might win and stay until the end. After all, this is how Tolkien wrote his character. I just can't help thinking about Sam the Hero. He knew how hero'ing worked because he knew so many of the old stories and the awareness of being a part of something so much bigger might have influenced him too.

Also, I like to think that Tolkien might have had wanted the Sam-character to step up in case that the Frodo-character would fail in the end. I'm glad he chose Gollum for the job though, that way we get our happy ending. Umm.. okay, I lost myself now... :P
Sam might be a Hufflepuf at heart, although, I'm pretty sure both Tolkien and Rowling might have wanted to put him in Gryffindor because of his hero-qualities. *coughNevillecough*
Yeah, I'm really warming up to Sam.. he definitely has the most growth and development during the trip (can you call a quest.. mission.. thing to Mordor a 'quest'? :teehee:). Frodo is just there as the gloomy, depressive background to sort of remind us how awful everything is. He knows his duty.. he did from the beginning.. nothing much changes there. But it is Sam that gives it all perspective. It is through his doubts and hopes and despairs that we can relate to it.

_________________
>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
Image

Image
Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara


Top
 Profile                  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  




Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Boyz theme by Zarron Media 2003