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 Post subject: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 8:54 pm 
Gondorian
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... the matter of androgyny :-D

The following discussion began in a thread meant for translations, as I noted the issue of repetition of names among the Eldar, and androgyny, as currently described over at dreamingfifi's website. I said I would have described things differently, and dreamingfifi responded:


Quote:
They aren't totally androgynous, especially when women are having children, but some of the differences between the sexes don't exist for them. Men don't have beards, and their bodies were described by Tolkien as: There was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.


Regarding the matter of strength and speed, it may seem a bit pedantic but I would say a difference still exists -- there is less difference than seen among mortals (comparing Elven-women that had not borne any children, as well) -- but still a difference.

I would add that Cirdan's beard (noted below in the quote) is attested in author-published text, while the late note you raise is posthumously published and gives no indication that JRRT even remembered to deal with Cirdan. There is also a note published in Vinyar Tengwar, which reads: 'Elves did not have beards until they entered the third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father [cf. XII:365-66 n.61] was exceptional, being only early in the second.'

This wasn't published by JRRT either, but this could at least explain Cirdan; I mean, while no information is given concerning these cycles, one could easily assume Cirdan is in his third cycle of life. That still arguably leaves us with very many beardless Elves of course, any who had yet to reach this point in their lives; but Cirdan is not the only Elf noted with a beard in any event.


Anyway, your article currently reads:

Quote:
Androgynous Elves

Elves were indeed androgynous. It's established that elf guys were beardless (History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UF) There's one contradiction in this in Círdan's being bearded. (The Grey Havens, ROTK) Tolkien describes the differences between the elvish sexes as follows in LACE:

"In all such things not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal...there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

He goes on to explain differences in career preferences between the sexes and concludes with "But all these things, and other matters of labor and play…may at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi." Among the elf people of the Noldor, elf women make bread. "Yet the cooking and preparing of other food is generally a task and pleasure of (elf-)men." (LACE) I assume they eat a lot of barbecue and elaborately prepared red sauce, then.



The chief thing I would make clear is that there is no evidence that Tolkien's Elves are androgynous looking -- no evidence (that I recall) that anyone ever had trouble telling a female elf from a male elf -- because whenever I've seen the topic raised, often enough it concerns how Elves look, not what they prefer to do; usually because certain male Elves are described with 'fair' faces, which some seem to think leads to androgyny.


How would I write this section? Not use the word androgynous actually :)

And concerning the section on career preferences, you note that there are differences of course, but here my approach would be to simply quote a greater number of the more specific things Tolkien goes into. Considering the description in Laws and Customs, we have no evidence of Tolkien's Elves confusing others as to gender (like with the Dwarves), with respect to looks or dress for example, and we do find differences among the vocations of Elves of different gender, despite that a given Elf can pursue something more often pursued by the other gender.



I guess my differences here would be more about brevity and avoiding what I see as possible confusion, rather than about correctly employing the word androgynous -- a word Tolkien himself does not employ as far as I recall, in any case.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 5:21 pm 
Gondorian
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With respect to Elven naming...

dreamingfifi wrote:
Elves don't take the names of other Elves directly - except for one of their parent's names. The Father-name, the first name they receive when they are born will be one of their parent's names - albeit often altered with a patronymic suffix added to it. The point is, no one is going to take Lúthien's name as their own. Not intentionally. There were two Legolases - but the two had never heard of each other and didn't know that the other existed. There also are two Rúmils, but their names have different meanings and come from different languages! So, barring coincidence and father names - names aren't repeated.

How would you describe these concepts?


I'll break this down a bit, for more specific responses, but in general I do not agree that Elves do not take the names of other Elves.

Quote:
Elves don't take the names of other Elves directly - except for one of their parent's names.


But see Argon below, for example.

Quote:
The Father-name, the first name they receive when they are born will be one of their parent's names - albeit often altered with a patronymic suffix added to it. The point is, no one is going to take Lúthien's name as their own. Not intentionally. There were two Legolases - but the two had never heard of each other and didn't know that the other existed.


This last statement concerning Legolas is, in my opinion, arguably mixing internal and external texts in any case. I would rather say that there is one Elf named Legolas in Middle-earth, and names of characters taken from The Book of Lost Tales are, I think, a bit dubious as necessarily prevailing for the World of Middle-earth -- in the early tales there was a Gnome named Gimli too, for instance, but we have no compelling reason to think that an Elf named Gimli ever lived in Middle-earth. Nor a Gnome named Legolas, which at the time Tolkien wrote the story was possibly to be seen as a confusion of two different names: 'Laigolas = green-leaf (...) But perhaps both were his names, as the Gnomes delighted to give two similar sounding names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas Legolast, Turin Turambar, etc. Legolas the ordinary form is a confusion of the two.' JRRT The Book of Lost Tales


Quote:
There also are two Rúmils, but their names have different meanings and come from different languages! So, barring coincidence and father names - names aren't repeated. How would you describe these concepts?


In WPP Tolkien notes: 'Rumil is not Sindarin but identical in form with the Quenya name of the learned Elf-sage of Valinor. It might be assumed to have been borrowed from tradition, but this is not very credible, since the traditions were High-elven and not known to the Silvan Folk or the Sindar and must therefore have been given by Galadriel (who was of the Noldor); but why the name, such a choice for an Elf who seems one of the plain guards and soldiers of the kingdom?' JRRT, pg. 51 Parma Eldalamberon 17

I note that the borrowing would not be credible because the traditions containing this name would not be known among the Silvan Folk, not because borrowings in general are not credible. For consideration:




Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)

Celebrimbor -- Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).

Rumil -- there are seemingly two Rumils in The Lord of the Rings.

Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.

Ambarussa -- (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named.

Galdor -- said to be a name of more simple form than the striking name Glorfindel, and thus might be repeated (Last Writings, author's note 1).


Granted I've never met the opinion that two names might be repeated if the Elves were unaware of doing so, but this seems to be based upon the broader idea that Elves do not repeat names in general, and possibly is intended to try to explain cases of repetition. And in any case, the example of Argon is one of Elves knowingly naming Elves in memory of a specific Elf.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: January 27th, 2012, 1:03 am 
Rider of Rohan
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Agh, why'd you start something interesting right as school starts up!

What's the source on "Argon"? I don't remember that one.

Most of the name repeats are Tolkien being lazy and filling in the names of bit-characters. I don't think he ever thought the rest of his work would be published!

There is mention in LACE of the name rules relaxing as more and more elves are born - and simple numbers mean that names have to be repeated in order for everyone to have a name.

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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: January 27th, 2012, 3:08 pm 
Gondorian
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Sorry, for me school ended years ago :)

As I say, Argon can be found in The Shibboleth of Feanor, but I forgot to mention the book! Anyway it's The Peoples of Middle-Earth: 'Arakano was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth (but the Sindarin form Argon was often later given as a name by Noldor and Sindar in memory of his valour)'

I realize you said 'directly' (above), and so one could argue that technically Aracano didn't live long enough to be called Argon specifically, in Grey-elven, but the fact that Argon itself was then 'often' given as a name by both the Noldor and Sindar, in memory of this Elf, is notable in my opinion, in any event.

Quote:
Most of the name repeats are Tolkien being lazy and filling in the names of bit-characters. I don't think he ever thought the rest of his work would be published!


Some names were conveniently already made, but we have bits of Tolkien's commentary too, like when he explains, for example, that the repetition of so striking a name as Glorfindel would not be credible 'This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance.' he likewise explains (note 1, Last Writings) 'Galdor also appeared in The Falll of Gondolin, but the name is of a more simple and usual form [than Glorfindel] and might be repeated.' Tolkien would also note (note 3 Last Writings): 'Galdor in contrast, even in the brief glimpses we have in the Council, is seen clearly as an inferior person, and much less wise.'

I'm not exactly sure why 'No other major character...' and so on, necessarily makes this incredible actually, but even these distinctions seem to include the repetition of names, at least in general -- and who is going to decide, if not Tolkien himself (who now can't obviously), what names hailing from 'major enough' characters should not be given to another Elvish person of importance?

Quote:
There is mention in LACE of the name rules relaxing as more and more elves are born - and simple numbers mean that names have to be repeated in order for everyone to have a name.


Yet even this description specifically concerns the Chosen-names, not all names in general. And the custom of the Chosen-name is not only noted as 'maybe' a specifically Noldorin custom (the text notes 'maybe' here as Tolkien is speaking from the perspective of an internal character, not as author), but in The Shibboleth of Feanor Christopher Tolkien notes that the concept of the Chosen-name might have been abandoned in any case, given that it seems absent from a later account on naming customs.

I would agree that it seems possible that the Chosen-name was abandoned, but I think it's also possible (and maybe Christopher Tolkien might agree too) that the later account is merely briefer and means to speak more to the Eldar as a whole, perhaps not delving into Noldorin-specific custom here.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 6th, 2012, 11:47 am 
Gondorian
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Just wondering if you agree (and plan on altering your website if so) that, generally speaking, the Elves can and did reuse names.

And whether or not the Chosen-name was (externally) abandoned by Tolkien, even internally Laws And Customs is here describing...

'In elder times the 'Chosen Name', or second name, was usually freshly devised, and though framed according to the structure of the language of the day, it often had no previous significance. In later ages, when there was a great abundance of names already in existence, it was more often selected from names that were known. But even so some modification of the old name might be made.'

... the Chosen-names specifically, not all names, especially given that this type of name is hinted at being a Noldorin custom.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 15th, 2012, 1:17 am 
Rider of Rohan
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I've been insanely busy with building a massive database of phrases lately - had to retranslate all of the Quenya phrases - and haven't even thought about all of this. I am working on writing in more detail about reused names - specifically for the Darkelves in Middle-earth.

I want to prevent people from naming their Elven characters Luthien or Feanor. the way I see it, an Elf's name is more like a word for that elf, and if people have the same name, confusion arises - especially if one is a character from lore. Just looking at the names you pointed out, I notice that except for Rumil, htye aren't of famous characters, and Rumil never set foot in Middle-earth.

Quote:
Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)
As you yourself noted, it speaks of using it as a title, not a name. It makes sense as a title too, because it means Noble Chieftain. Sort of like Arwen means "lady" - it could be used as a title or as her name.

Quote:
Celebrimbor -- Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).
This one can be explained by Tolkien constantly rewriting the character's history. Also, I think that the bit about it being a frequent name means that it is used as a title for Silversmiths, because it goes on:
Quote:
In the same way Tegilbor was used for one skilled in calligraphy


Quote:
Rumil -- there are seemingly two Rumils in The Lord of the Rings.

Quote:
In WPP Tolkien notes: 'Rumil is not Sindarin but identical in form with the Quenya name of the learned Elf-sage of Valinor. It might be assumed to have been borrowed from tradition, but this is not very credible, since the traditions were High-elven and not known to the Silvan Folk or the Sindar and must therefore have been given by Galadriel (who was of the Noldor); but why the name, such a choice for an Elf who seems one of the plain guards and soldiers of the kingdom?' JRRT, pg. 51 Parma Eldalamberon 17
Tolkien didn't think that anyone would want to read the extensive histories of Middle-earth, and needed a name for a minor character. To his surprise, people were interested. Tolkien was trying to rationalize using this name, which just didn't fit except for its phonetic structure. But, since The Silmarillion wasn't published in his lifetime, and the Words, Phrases, and Passages manuscript was abandoned, he never felt the need to find a way to justify that name.

Quote:
Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.
So? The names may have accidentally ended up the same (two translations: Triumph-jewel and Light/Shining-jewel), and they don't appear to have known of each other. If an elf took a name, how would they know that no one else in the entire world had the same name? They wouldn't. It's entirely possible that Elves could end up with the same name that way. It's also likely that Tolkien was recycling names he liked for bit-characters.

Quote:
Ambarussa -- (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named.
theirs is a strange case, because they are identical twins. She couldn't tell them apart, and called them by the same name - "red-head". In this case, they weren't taking each other's names, and they were named at the same time. In the text, Nerdanel insists that they will be able to choose unique names on their own, but she's clearly given up on telling them apart. It's a special case, and something that I should take note of though.

Quote:
Galdor -- said to be a name of more simple form than the striking name Glorfindel, and thus might be repeated (Last Writings, author's note 1).
In that note, it mentions that the two Galdors may be the same person, years later - or perhaps not. Galdor itself is another vague name. the Element Gal- likely means "light" or "shining", but "dor" could be "tor (brother), taur (forest, king/lord, high), dor (land)" so you could say that is coincidence too. Also, if Galdor #2 is a Sinda, as it mentions is possible, the name likely has very different origins from the Noldorin Galdor - which would make them having the same name a coincidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 29th, 2012, 10:33 am 
Gondorian
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dreamingfifi I'll respond to some of the things you wrote above, but your website currently reads:

Quote:
The Father-Name is as close as the Elves get to taking each other's names. While someone can reference another's name in their own, they will never copy it exactly. If two unrelated elves end up with the same name, it is a coincidence, and not on purpose.

Merin Essi ar Quenteli


But where, in any of the Tolkien sources you listed as the sources for your article here, is this noted? Your responses below seem to be based on the assumption that Elves, in general, can't repeat names on purpose, but I'm wondering what the source is for that notion in the first place.

With respect to the first example...

Quote:
Elthir wrote: 'Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)

dreamingfifi responded: As you yourself noted, it speaks of using it as a title, not a name. It makes sense as a title too, because it means Noble Chieftain. Sort of like Arwen means "lady" - it could be used as a title or as her name.


Actually I did not note that -- Tolkien wrote that Argon was often given as a name by the Sindar and Noldor in memory of his valour. What's noted is that Aracano himself didn't live long enough to have the Sindarin form of his name.

Quote:
Elthir wrote: Celebrimbor -- Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).

dreamingfifi responded: This one can be explained by Tolkien constantly rewriting the character's history.


Even if this were the external explanation, the internal information remains, in any case.

Quote:
Also, I think that the bit about it being a frequent name means that it is used as a title for Silversmiths, because it goes on: In the same way Tegilbor was used for one skilled in calligraphy


You have a point that these examples could be about titles, but if so one could merely add that there's nothing wrong, again generally speaking, with the Elves repeating names and titles.

Quote:
Elthir wrote: Rumil -- there are seemingly two Rumils in The Lord of the Rings. In WPP Tolkien notes: 'Rumil is not Sindarin but identical in form with the Quenya name of the learned Elf-sage of Valinor. It might be assumed to have been borrowed from tradition, but this is not very credible, since the traditions were High-elven and not known to the Silvan Folk or the Sindar and must therefore have been given by Galadriel (who was of the Noldor); but why the name, such a choice for an Elf who seems one of the plain guards and soldiers of the kingdom?' JRRT, pg. 51 Parma Eldalamberon 17

dreamingfifi responded: Tolkien didn't think that anyone would want to read the extensive histories of Middle-earth, and needed a name for a minor character. To his surprise, people were interested. Tolkien was trying to rationalize using this name, which just didn't fit except for its phonetic structure. But, since The Silmarillion wasn't published in his lifetime, and the Words, Phrases, and Passages manuscript was abandoned, he never felt the need to find a way to justify that name.


But the point is: Tolkien, in his explanation, does not state that he has crossed his own rule that an Elf can't have the same name as another Elf, but rather wonders about how a Silvan Elf ended up with a Quenya name for an Elf-sage of Valinor. Answer: Galadriel. 'It might be assumed to have been borrowed from tradition, but this is not very credible, since the traditions were High-elven and not known to the Silvan Folk or the Sindar and must therefore have been given by Galadriel (who was of the Noldor);...'

Quote:
Elthir wrote: Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.

dreamingfifi resoponded: So? The names may have accidentally ended up the same (two translations: Triumph-jewel and Light/Shining-jewel), and they don't appear to have known of each other. If an elf took a name, how would they know that no one else in the entire world had the same name? They wouldn't. It's entirely possible that Elves could end up with the same name that way. It's also likely that Tolkien was recycling names he liked for bit-characters.


Well, it's just another example of two Elves with the same name -- and that you can explain this example in such a way as to fit your theory doesn't necessarily mean that the theory itself is true.

Quote:
Elthir wrote: Ambarussa -- (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named.

dreamingfifi responded: theirs is a strange case, because they are identical twins. She couldn't tell them apart, and called them by the same name - "red-head". In this case, they weren't taking each other's names, and they were named at the same time. In the text, Nerdanel insists that they will be able to choose unique names on their own, but she's clearly given up on telling them apart. It's a special case, and something that I should take note of though.


As I said, this example is not 'not exactly reflective of the point in general' in any case.

Quote:
Elthir wrote: Galdor -- said to be a name of more simple form than the striking name Glorfindel, and thus might be repeated (Last Writings, author's note 1).

dreamingfifi responded: In that note, it mentions that the two Galdors may be the same person, years later - or perhaps not. Galdor itself is another vague name. the Element Gal- likely means "light" or "shining", but "dor" could be "tor (brother), taur (forest, king/lord, high), dor (land)" so you could say that is coincidence too. Also, if Galdor #2 is a Sinda, as it mentions is possible, the name likely has very different origins from the Noldorin Galdor - which would make them having the same name a coincidence.


But again the point is that Tolkien himself simply notes that the name Galdor might be repeated -- essentially, even if these 'Galdors' are not the same person, the name might be repeated.

Tolkien doesn't note that it would need to be a coincidence however -- again, you are seemingly trying to explain that this example would need to be coincidence -- which fits the idea as currently stated on your website, but where in Tolkien's works does this notion hail from?


Last edited by Elthir on July 29th, 2012, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 29th, 2012, 12:28 pm 
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In LACE, Tolkien mentioned that the personal names, the ones with special significance to their bearers, should be unique to their bearers. He went on to say that with rising Elven populations, this was difficult, so this custom started to relax. To get around this problem, they'd tweak and modify the names to make them unique and more personal.

Page 215 of Morgoth's Ring
Quote:
In elder times the 'Chosen Name', or second name was usually freshly devised, and though framed according tot he language of the day, it often had no previous significance. In later ages, when there was a great abundance of names already in existence, is was more often selected from names that were known. But even so some modification of the old name might be made.

[...] The chosen names were regarded by the Noldor as part of their personal property, like (say) their rings, cups, or knives, or other possessions that they could lend, or share with kindred and friends, but which couldn't be taken without leave. The use of the Chosen name, except by members of the same house (parents, sisters, brothers), was a token of intimacy and love, when permitted. It was, therefore, presumptuous or insulting to use it without permission.
And Note #14:(pretty much just restates the above, with less elaboration)
Quote:
At this point there is a footnote in B (deriving closely from A) which was later struck through:

It will be observed in the histories how seldom the same name recurs for different persons. This is because, both in Essecarme and Essecilme, there was usually an attempt to mark individuality; and names were regarded as the property of those who first bore them.


Here's the problem: Tolkien liked certain names, and recycled bit characters' names often - as long as they sounded like they could fit in the setting. He also rewrote character's backgrounds often. He didn't have to worry about being consistent with himself, and often, in PE17 especially, you can see him realizing that he'd accidentally run up against something that he'd established earlier. - so he would go back and make an entirely new history to explain how something ended up some way, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. So, how do we deal with this when trying to give people useful advice when they are trying to come up with a name for their character?

In my latest edit, (which I made thanks to your criticisms) I pointed out loopholes to the problem of unique names - not knowing of each other - modifying a preexisting name a little - nicknames don't count because they aren't considered "true names". Should I just contain all of that in the sections aimed at the specific types names instead of in the "general facts" section?

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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 29th, 2012, 12:58 pm 
Gondorian
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Yes but the section you are referring to in Laws and Customs is not about names in general, but refers to the Chosen Names specifically. Moreover, concerning which, this kind of name is implied to be a Noldorin custom as well (as opposed to an Eldarin custom for example) -- and which externally, was possibly abandoned in any case, as noted by Christopher Tolkien in a note to The Shibboleth of Feanor.

And (although not that you said otherwise) the footnote you are referring to from Laws and Customs was later struck through, as the quote itself states.

Quote:
Here's the problem: Tolkien liked certain names, and recycled bit characters' names often - as long as they sounded like they could fit in the setting. He also rewrote character's backgrounds often. He didn't have to worry about being consistent with himself, and often, in PE17 especially, you can see him realizing that he'd accidentally run up against something that he'd established earlier. - so he would go back and make an entirely new history to explain how something ended up some way, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. So, how do we deal with this when trying to give people useful advice when they are trying to come up with a name for their character?


Yet I don't recall anything in PE17 which states that Elves cannot purposely repeat names -- as again, the Rumil problem, however it may have come about externally, is not problematic because the name might have been borrowed from tradition, but that Tolkien needed a link from the Silvan Elves to the Noldor, finding it in Galadriel.

I'm not sure what advice I would give for people who are trying to come up with names, but so far my comments are more focused on what I think could be a more accurate description of the primary source materials.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 29th, 2012, 1:53 pm 
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In PE 17 Tolkien elaborated on and rewrote little bits of his canon - but it appears that he didn't rewrite the LACE, and that he left the naming traditions part alone. I don't see why we can't use LACE as a reference, or why it shouldn't be counted as a primary source. Even though Tolkien pulled names from earlier works to give minor characters names - he did so to avoid repeated names (and he didn't think any of his other material would ever be published or that anyone would find an interest in them, so he borrowed names occasionally from his other writings) because he wanted all the elven characters in LotR to have unique names.

Yes, Note 14 is a bit that he struck out, but it's just restating when Tolkien put more eloquently and in depth before.

What I try to get across in my naming essays is that the focus of an elven name is the elf who carries the name. When coming up with the names for a character, you don't skim some preexisting names and chose what sounds good, you chose names that have relevance and significance to the character and the character's personality. Tolkien's Elves don't have an equivalent concept to 'The popular name this year is Jennifer, so I'm naming my kid Jennifer,' or 'The saint's day that your birthday is on is "Saint Frances of Rome", so your name is Frances,' or there was a famous Queen called "Elizabeth", so your name is Elizabeth,' or 'my best friend in highschool was named "Jake", so your name is Jake.' Galadriel was named Noblewoman Manmaiden by her parents not because the names were in style, but because they were relevant to and descriptive of her. To elves, the meaning and its relevance to the person were important, not who else had the same name.

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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 29th, 2012, 3:15 pm 
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In PE 17 Tolkien elaborated on and rewrote little bits of his canon - but it appears that he didn't rewrite the LACE, and that he left the naming traditions part alone.


It's the Shibboleth of Feanor that casts doubt on (LACE) Laws and Customs Among the Eldar here, in my opinion, especially with respect to the seemingly Noldorin custom of the Chosen-names -- as I say, this is even specifically raised by Christopher Tolkien in a note.

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I don't see why we can't use LACE as a reference, or why it shouldn't be counted as a primary source.


Well, even if you do, the section in question is about the Chosen names specifically (implied to be a Noldorin custom), not all names.


LACE is a primary source in that it's written by JRRT, but the question is whether or not the later account in The Shibboleth of Feanor is intended to wholly supersede it, or to supersede it at least with respect to the Noldorin Chosen names -- or being briefer, is maybe simply meant as a briefer account which does not intend to delve into Noldorin customs, or other customs, in more detail.

In any case the Shibboleth description is later and thus (for my vote) has more weight. I think it should be the 'primary' source, and actually can easily serve as the only source.

That said, given the obscurity of the external scenario however, I think LACE could be employed as a secondary source (still primary in the sense that it's written by Tolkien of course), as long as the external details are noted, so that the potential reader is aware that LACE might have been superseded (if so, arguably a shame given that it's more detailed).

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Even though Tolkien pulled names from earlier works to give minor characters names - he did so to avoid repeated names (and he didn't think any of his other material would ever be published or that anyone would find an interest in them, so he borrowed names occasionally from his other writings) because he wanted all the elven characters in LotR to have unique names.


Well there are seemingly two different Rumils in The Lord of the Rings itself, for example; and while I think it's natural that when writing a tale, one desires to have different names for different characters in that tale -- that's different from the idea that all Elves imagined to be living in Middle-earth can never purposely repeat names.

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Yes, Note 14 is a bit that he struck out, but it's just restating when Tolkien put more eloquently and in depth before.


I don't quite agree here: the footnote speaks to both Essecarme and Essecilme, and the last thought in this note seems to me to be broader in scope. I think it was struck out because the section on Chosen-names better illustrated Tolkien's ideas at the time -- about which we can note it's stated that in later years the Chosen Name was selected 'from names that were known', although some modification of the old name 'might' be made -- thus a modification didn't necessarily need to be made, I would say.


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What I try to get across in my naming essays is that the focus of an elven name is the elf who carries the name. When coming up with the names for a character, you don't skim some preexisting names and chose what sounds good, you chose names that have relevance and significance to the character and the character's personality. Tolkien's Elves don't have an equivalent concept to 'The popular name this year is Jennifer, so I'm naming my kid Jennifer,' or 'The saint's day that your birthday is on is "Saint Frances of Rome", so your name is Frances,' or there was a famous Queen called "Elizabeth", so your name is Elizabeth,' or 'my best friend in highschool was named "Jake", so your name is Jake.' Galadriel was named Noblewoman Manmaiden by her parents not because the names were in style, but because they were relevant to and descriptive of her. To elves, the meaning and its relevance to the person were important, not who else had the same name.


Well, while it may be the case that Elves will have names relevant to something about themselves, or even prophetic relevance, the case of Argon shows that Elves (in two clans) could be named in memory of another Elf however. One 'restriction of sorts' might be to cite Tolkien's statement from one of the Glorfindel essays, although I've already commented on that above.

Anyway, for myself, I don't see a great need to comment about things Tolkien himself never commented on one way or the other, rather than simply point out that it might be a good idea to try to come up with a name relevant to something about the character.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 29th, 2012, 5:08 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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In the end, my naming essays are "how to" guides, not "what is" essays. I have to pick and chose canon to provide a more solid spring board for writers and RPers designing their characters, people who don't want to get deep into the canon and argue the finer details of chosen names.

On chosen names... I read the section you were talking about, and I don't think it overturns LACE, but it does add another type of chosen name to the mix: an alias. Some Noldor doubtlessly wanted to leave their pasts behind them, so they chose new names to reinvent themselves somewhere else. So here, I disagree with Christopher Tolkien's interpretation that Tolkien's earlier work on Cilmessi was abandoned.

And here's another problem. Like religion, so much of canon in Tolkien's mythology boils down to interpretation.

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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 29th, 2012, 8:31 pm 
Gondorian
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In the end, my naming essays are "how to" guides, not "what is" essays. I have to pick and chose canon to provide a more solid spring board for writers and RPers designing their characters, people who don't want to get deep into the canon and argue the finer details of chosen names.


Well, I think Role Players should desire accuracy as much as anyone else, and the information from The Shibboleth of Feanor is the latest so far about naming customs -- and even supplemented with certain details from LACE (if you choose to do so), plus a few external cautions, should not be too long or confusing.

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On chosen names... I read the section you were talking about, and I don't think it overturns LACE, but it does add another type of chosen name to the mix: an alias. Some Noldor doubtlessly wanted to leave their pasts behind them, so they chose new names to reinvent themselves somewhere else. So here, I disagree with Christopher Tolkien's interpretation that Tolkien's earlier work on Cilmessi was abandoned.


It's obviously ok to disagree, but Christopher Tolkien writes in note 16 to The Shibboleth of Feanor that the Chosen-name as described in Laws And Customs 'appears to have been abandoned', and I think this could at least be noted as a brief footnote on your web page, even if you disagree. If there are grey areas (as we know there are) describing these well will allow the person reading to at least make up his or her mind.

And Christopher Tolkien chose his wording carefully I think: it does 'appear' so, which I still think leaves room for an alternate possibility. But again, it seems worth noting in my opinion; and after all, this is a late text describing the kinds of names found amoung the Eldar, and the Chosen-name is rather notably absent at least -- or, I think to not note this external detail will leave the matter of the Chosen-names standing on more solid ground than 'appears' to be the case.

;-)

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And here's another problem. Like religion, so much of canon in Tolkien's mythology boils down to interpretation.


Hmm, are you suggesting here that you are sticking to the brief statements currently on your website (as I quoted above), due to your interpretation of something?

I only ask as you haven't commented yet on whether or not you agree that the section of LACE (raised in the thread) does not describe that Elves cannot repeat names on purpose (again in general). Nor does any other text that I'm aware of so far (again noting the statement in the Glorfindel essay, as far as that goes).


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 30th, 2012, 2:43 pm 
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Footnotes. Excellent idea. I'll get on that. But it may be a few weeks, I have to sew up a small mountain of innovatory for a RenFaire and turn Thalassian into a working language. I'll be scarce for a while again, alas!

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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 31st, 2012, 10:43 am 
Gondorian
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OK, but can you answer this question directly: do you now agree that even LACE does not support the current description on your website, and that generally speaking, Elves can reuse names, even on purpose?


When I asked a similar question back on July 6th your responses (about each name that I had raised) indirectly suggested that you still disagreed, and later you raised LACE in seeming support of the argument currently on your webpage (again, indirectly suggesting that you still disagreed). And the subsequent question of whether LACE, or any part of it, was abandoned or not is basically a side topic in any case, as (as I posted)...

'Well, even if you do [employ LACE as a source for your webpage], the section in question is about the Chosen names specifically (implied to be a Noldorin custom), not all names.' About which one could add that in later years even this type of name was selected 'from names that were known', although some modification of the old name 'might' be made.

So to put it another way: have I swayed you to agree with my position?

Someone once agreed with me about something, and I believe he or she found that it resulted in no ill affects ;-)



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Tolkien notes that the Chosen-name must await until a child was deemed ready and capable of lamatyave (long vowel for first and third vowel a) or the 'individual pleasure in the sounds and forms of words', and that lamatyave was held a mark of individuality, more important than stature, colour, and feature of face.

It seems to me that JRRT is simply being realistic when he describes the scenario of later times. After a time, it would arguably be somewhat difficult to come up with a wholly new Chosen-name, especially given individual taste with respect to sound and form -- that is, if one likes the already used name Galdor for example, one might like it more than any modification that could be made to it.

I mean, I'm not sure how the ceremony would work with respect to later times: how does a Noldorin Elf-child know what names have already been chosen? Please consider this well young Noldo, and choose a name which expresses your individual pleasure in the sounds and forms of words... but here's a list of a rather large amount of names that you can't choose even if they reflect your lamatyave, or a list of names that you must at least modify in some way!

Thus (in my opinion), while Tolkien still comments on individuality with the Chosen-name, as it says something interesting about the Noldor and language, he realistically adds the commentary with respect to later times as well, and slashes through a note that doesn't quite reflect his idea as well as the text proper.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldarin naming customs, but first...
PostPosted: July 31st, 2012, 10:18 pm 
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Elthir wrote:
OK, but can you answer this question directly: do you now agree that even LACE does not support the current description on your website, and that generally speaking, Elves can reuse names, even on purpose?
I think I put it too broadly, but the personal nature of the 2nd name especially means that people should focus on chosing names that match their characters - not just preexisting names. So, what I wrote wasn't wholly wrong, it just stepped a little too far in the interpretation. I also think that I should knuckle down and collect everything Tolkien ever said about naming his elves and write a thorough breakdown of what he said when, but I just don't have time for it right now. Like I said, I'm building up an inventory for a RenFaire (I make my pocket money by being a seamstress), and I was commissioned to turn Thalassian (World of Warcraft High Elvish) into a working language.

Quote:
When I asked a similar question back on July 6th your responses (about each name that I had raised) indirectly suggested that you still disagreed, and later you raised LACE in seeming support of the argument currently on your webpage (again, indirectly suggesting that you still disagreed). And the subsequent question of whether LACE, or any part of it, was abandoned or not is basically a side topic in any case, as (as I posted)...

'Well, even if you do [employ LACE as a source for your webpage], the section in question is about the Chosen names specifically (implied to be a Noldorin custom), not all names.' About which one could add that in later years even this type of name was selected 'from names that were known', although some modification of the old name 'might' be made.

So to put it another way: have I swayed you to agree with my position?
Partially. :goofy: But, I'm trying to improve my essays, not win arguments. I probably ended up exaggerating that bit in my memory when I told the nth person that they couldn't call their Mary Sue "Lúthien Tinúviel".

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Someone once agreed with me about something, and I believe he or she found that it resulted in no ill affects ;-)
No no no... I was so hard on this point for so long because of some of the really crappy "Elvish name generators" just churn out preexisting names with no regard to their linguistic make up or who owned the names originally. that and the naming choices of new fanfiction writers - which ultimately be from said crappy name-generators. Somehow that just connected to that part in LACE. It's also a bit of fanon that's been wandering around a while, and I connected to that too. :confused:

What I'll do right now, because it doesn't take very long, is just delete the offending line and put off the annotations for some time when I have time. Right now... I need to make some more cloaks, especially Little Red Riding hood cloaks because everyone wants one of those. I only have two in my inventory right now, and the faire is in 2 weeks. :frust: Sorry, I'm in panic mode right now...

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