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 Post subject: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 28th, 2015, 9:55 am 
Warden of the Knight
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Somewhere towards the middle of the book it seems there was a couple who gets married and later after they have been married find out they are brother and sister or something to that wffect. I can't seem to remember the details of that particular story and for some reason keep wondering about it.

Since time and my laziness will not afford me opportunity to actually sit down and read the book again I Thought I would ask on here since some of you are very knowledgable in these things. Thanks! :)

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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 28th, 2015, 12:44 pm 
Gondorian
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That must be Turin, who unwittingly marries his sister. Is there something specific about the tale you are wondering about? Not that I can answer, but I'm too lazy to try and set out the whole tale, even in brief...

... unless very brief: Morgoth does bad things... Glaurung the dragon too... and Turin ends up on the point of his own sword.

That's probably too brief ;-)

Early on Tolkien was (generally speaking) inspired by the hapless Kullervo (and his sister), from the Finnish Kalevala. There's even a new book out* where a young Tolkien tries his hand at writing the Kullervo tale in prose, with bits of poetry.

* well it's out in England anyway... not sure if it's in bookstores in the US or other places yet.

And actually it was already published in a volume of Tolkien Studies, but this version is going out to bookstores.


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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 28th, 2015, 2:19 pm 
Balrog
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The full story of Túrin and Niënor can be found in The Children of Húrin. I have to confess it's not one of my favourites.

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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 28th, 2015, 3:16 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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Thanks guys, yes that is the one! :).

No It is certainly not the cheeriest of stories but it kept comig to mind and it bugged me that I could remember no details hardly.

Would you happen to know what page it starts on in the silmarilion? There wasn't anything terrible specific I was wondering about just couldn't remember it.

That was certainly brief, though, Elthir. Lol

Thanks Shieldmaiden I didn't realize that. That is one book I have never had.

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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 29th, 2015, 8:15 am 
Gondorian
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Page numbers might differ depending upon the different versions in publication, but it's basically chapter 21, Of Turin Turambar (although itself part of a larger tale of course).

I highly recommend the long prose version constructed by Christopher Tolkien too. JRRT intended both a long and a short prose version (of this and certain great tales), but sadly never finished and published either (to state the obvious), not to mention his version in verse.

I recall, back in the days of my youth, saying how much I was enjoying the Silmarillion -- I had only just begun reading it and someone said (suggesting that if I loved it so far I would also love what was in my near future) just wait 'till you [me] get to the chapter about Turin.

He was right. Loved it! Still do.


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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 29th, 2015, 10:38 am 
Warden of the Knight
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Cool. Thanks. :)

The long prose version of the silmarilion?

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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 30th, 2015, 8:43 am 
Gondorian
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Rather long prose versions of the Great Tales :-D

To simplify their names somewhat, these were:

The tale of the Nightingale (Beren and Luthien) Narn e-Dinuviel

The tale of the Children of Hurin (Turin and so on) Narn e-mbar Hador (includes Narn i Chin Hurin)

The tale of the Fall of Gondolin (Tuor, Earendil and so on) Narn e-Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en El


So these tales have both "short" chapters in Quenta Silmarillion and long prose versions too. And possibly long versions in poetry (see The Lays of Beleriand for examples), at least for some of these tales. Basically Quenta Silmarillion is meant to be a history "in brief" drawn from many older tales.

And the reason we have only the one long prose Children of Hurin constructed by Christopher Tolkien, is that he felt there was enough of this to work with -- at least in the form as revised by Tolkien after The Lord of the Rings was "finished" but not published, or as worked on again in the later 1950s.

The long version wasn't finished, especially in some parts, but Christopher Tolkien felt he could construct something "like" what his father might have produced, even though he could not include every latest idea (just like with the constructed Silmarillion), as that would, or might, make it difficult to produce an internally consistent version using what Tolkien had set to paper.

That's simplifying things a bit, but for example, Christopher Tolkien knew that his father intended Turin to be wearing the Helm of Hador when confronting the Dragon at Nargothrond, but he chose an earlier idea instead (the Dwarf-mask) because there wasn't enough actually written down and incorporated into the story to give the fuller history of the Helm as Tolkien imagined it. So both constructed versions (Silmarillion chapter, and the one volume Children of Hurin book) have the Dwarf-mask, even though we know Tolkien had rejected that idea for the Helm of Hador.

And if you have read Unfinished Tales, for instance the tale of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin is really Tolkien's revised Fall of Gondolin, long prose version, but sadly Tolkien abandoned it fairly early in the story, and only did some later work on it with respect to Maeglin. For a while Tolkien thought he might have a chance at publishing his Silmarillion along with The Lord of the Rings in the early 1950s, but when that fell through a lot of the new work (later-ish work) on both Quenta Silmarillion and the Great Tales (long versions) halted for a time...

... as of course then Tolkien had to get The Lord of the Rings (and Appendices) ready for actual publication, which took up his time, and he had other life concerns as well obviously. After The Lord of the Rings was in bookstores JRRT had more time to try and get these things done (although again he had plenty of other things going on in his life too); plus his new tale had done well enough in book sales to give him hope that he might get at least some of his "Silmarillion stuff" published.

But that's another story, and I've simplified things here already!

The History of Middle-Earth is a long series for a reason ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: October 30th, 2015, 11:13 am 
Warden of the Knight
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I see. I dodn't know all that to such an extent Just that christopher had to add things and fill in gaps here and there. I dabble in this type of information really. I love it but just lack the time to delve.

Thanks for the explination, though! I love reading short bits like this!

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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: November 1st, 2015, 9:25 pm 
Gondorian
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The more detailed answer to your question, Jax, is that Glaurung brainwashed Nienor with his hypnotic eyes, Turin, her brother, found her but didn't recognize her because he hadn't seen her in 20+ years, fell in love with her, married her, and then right before his death, Glaurung tells him that they're actually sibs and it's really depressing.... That's the one chapter I don't want to read again because it's so depressing. I hate crying in books, but it's unavoidable because for women it's a reflex.

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 Post subject: Re: A question to Silmarilion Fans
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 8:50 am 
Warden of the Knight
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Ok, gotcha. Thanks . :) I did not remember the thing about Glaurung.

Lol yes, I will admit it is probably easier for a guy to read through such things. There tons of other stories that I enjoy out of the Silmarilion much more, I just could get that one out of my mind because I could not remember the details.

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