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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 4:37 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Ok. But how much fairer? Then there had to be some sort of shifting ...

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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 4:44 pm 
Gondorian
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The Elves of Beleriand thought Sauron truly repented (which he did for a short while) and no longer thought of him as evil. He would have not had to change his phisical appearance much to be accepted as 'converted'.

Remember he did not develop his hideous shape that he had in the Last Alliance battle (like in the film) until after the downfall of Numenor.


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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 5:03 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Quote:
Remember he did not develop his hideous shape that he had in the Last Alliance battle
Quote:
...
until after the downfall of Numenor.


So he did change shape on that occasion, heh ;)

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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 5:07 pm 
Gondorian
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He did becuase he had been robbed of his existing body, therefore he did not shape shift. He was only a spirit when he took the form of a new body with his Ring, so did not originally have a shape to shift.


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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 5:20 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Ah right; ok thanks alot for clearing that out :). So about the matter of the forging of the Rings, is there any text that says that Annatar was not enitrely in shape of elf?

Here is a text on wikipedia found here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annatar

Quote:
As a Maia, Sauron was able to change his appearance for many years. In the beginning he likely wore a fair and noble seeming most of the time, but after switching his allegiance to Morgoth he frequently took the appearance of a dark and terrible shadow. As part of a plan to destroy Huan, Sauron took the form of the greatest werewolf which had been on Middle-earth up to that time, and then assumed several other forms when attempting to escape. He took a beautiful appearance once again at the end of the First Age in an effort to deceive Eönwë. He either remained such, or took this form again when appearing as Annatar to the Elves.


Although, as you said, the article contradicts itself since it later says, in the next paragraph:-

Quote:
Like Morgoth, his ability to change his physical form (his hröa) was eventually reduced and possibly lost entirely. After the destruction of his fair form in the fall of Númenor, Sauron was unable to take a pleasing appearance or veil his power again.


But this did not happen to Balrogs ... they didn't loose their bodies in the fall of Numenor.

And also, we can take the theory that at least, before the Third Age, balrogs might have been able to shape-shift.

Thanks,
Eärendil The Mariner

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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 5:22 pm 
Gondorian
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Please provide a quote of a Balrog shape-shifting its actualy entire body.


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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 5:23 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Sorry but I didn't understand what you meant. Could you further explain please :confused:

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PostPosted: July 29th, 2006, 5:27 pm 
Gondorian
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We agree that a Balrog could alter the shape and size of the Flame and shadow surrounding its body.

However this does not mean they could actualy shape shift as Sauron and Melkor could originally could. Just becuase Balrogs are Maiar it does not mean they have the same abilities as other Maiar.

Osse for example. He was a Maiar of Ulmo and had the ability to control waters. Sauron as a Maiar could not do that however - thats why melkor tried to gain the allegience of OsseM

Please provide a quote of a Balrog shape-shifting.


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 8:37 am 
Rider of Rohan
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Quote:
Please provide a quote of a Balrog shape-shifting


There is no quote that shows that Balrogs could shape-shift. Although, as I believe Sauron could actually change shape, before the Third Age, I do believe that Balrogs could shape-shift aswell*.

*They might not have been able to do this in the Third Age, but it is possible that during the First and Second Ages they did.

On the other hand, there is nothing that says that balrogs couldn't shape-shift either. ;)

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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 9:52 am 
Gondorian
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All the Balrogs deminished in the First Age except the one that Killed Durin and Gandalf.

So as Osse could control waters I suppose you think the Balrogs could as well?


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 11:27 am 
Rider of Rohan
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Quote:
All the Balrogs deminished in the First Age except the one that Killed Durin and Gandalf.


Well that was Tolkien's latest idea, but before, the first version said that a few other Balrogs had survived.

Quote:
So as Osse could control waters I suppose you think the Balrogs could as well?


No of course not. That is a different kind of power. Here we are not talking about the task that they were appointed to take care of in Arda; but we are talking about a single ability that the race of the Maiar could perform.

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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 1:11 pm 
Gondorian
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Tolkien first said in his early writings that there were thousands of Balrogs but I hope you don't beleive that.
No all the Balrogs save one died in the War of Wrath.

There is not one quote whatsoever to state that balrogs could shape-shift so therefore it is wise to abandon this highly unlikely idear. Like Ungoliant Balrogs took there form when they descended into Ea and were stuck to it ever after.


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 1:18 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Quote:
Tolkien first said in his early writings that there were thousands of Balrogs but I hope you don't beleive that.


Yes. Don't worry, I don't believe it heh! :-D But what I meant was that, in earlier writings, Tolkien said that, after the War of the Wrath, only a few balrogs had survived. But then, the final thought came out to be that only 1 balrog had lived.

Anyways, regards this:-
Quote:
There is not one quote whatsoever to state that balrogs could shape-shift so therefore it is wise to abandon this highly unlikely idear.


There is not one single quote that balrogs had wings or not, is there? :orly: So why do we have to abandon such an idea of shape shifting? After all, it is still debated of whether it was winged or not; can't it be the same for shape shifting? It doesn't mean that if something is not stated, then it really doesn't exist.

It might have been applied to other characters and so the author would let the reader to discover certain characteristics of another through the fully described character.

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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 1:38 pm 
Gondorian
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Its up to you if you choose to believe it. I am not saying its impossible as there is no direct quote saying 'Balrogs cannot shape-shift' however there is no quote that says Melkor was not 1000 feet tall but do people Beleive that?.

Its highly unlikely. If they could shape-shift it was never said.

The reason why the 'Balrogs=wings' theory is often debated is becuase there IS a quote stating they had wings - But the debate is whether they were shadow wings or real wings.


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 1:47 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Quote:
Its up to you if you choose to believe it. I am not saying its impossible as there is no direct quote saying 'Balrogs cannot shape-shift' however there is no quote that says Melkor was not 1000 feet tall but do people Beleive that?.

Its highly unlikely. If they could shape-shift it was never said.

Hmm I see. I guess I'll have to dig up my Tolkien books to try and find a definate answer for balrogs, heh! :)

Quote:
The reason why the 'Balrogs=wings' theory is often debated is becuase there IS a quote stating they had wings - But the debate is whether they were shadow wings or real wings.



Yes that is true. And to make it more intruiging, in FOTR, when the fellowship are at the Great River, they encounter a flying creature which Legolas manages to shoot at it. And it is said:-

Quote:
'Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night.'


They then discuss what it might have been, and Gimli says:-

Quote:
''I cannot,' said Gimli. 'But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria - the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.'


Therefore, one can assume that since Gimli was reminded of the Barlog by a flying creature, it might be that the Balrog could have had physical wings.

On the other hand, one might say that since the flying creature reminded Gimli of the shadow of the balrog, his wings would have just meant the shadow.

So, it can be concluded that the Balrog-wings are quite enigmatic heh! :bounce:

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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 2:26 pm 
Gondorian
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Again the best resource I can find is a debate on the matter which can be found here:

http://tolkienforums.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=77580&p=3&topicID=7364359


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