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Post subject: Questions....questions.... Posted: December 11th, 2006, 1:33 pm |
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Joined: 10 July 2005 Posts: 23149 Location: Where there are handsome heroes and sexy villains.. all that need some lovin' ;) Country:
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I recently watched the trilogy again for the first time in over a year (shocking I know). Instead of it being a quiet viewing, me and my brother found ourselves asking so many questions that we didn't really know the answer to. So, for all you Ringnut's out there, more wise than me, see what you can do.
Why didn't Elrond remove the Ring from Isildur?
Now Elrond was very much full of doom and gloom about the Ring and all that happened. So why, when Isildur failed to destroy the Ring, did he let him walk away? Surely he could have tackled him and the Ring could somehow have fallen into the larva? And if destroying the Ring was so important would it not have been worth the sacrafice of one who had been "taken" by the Ring?
What would have happened if Bilbo had taken the Ring to Rivendell?
If he had not performed his "party trick" thereby making Gandalf suspicious and if he had actually survived the journey to Rivendell woud Elrond have sensed it's presence? And what would he have done? Would the Council still have been called?
How did Gollum get into Moria?
The Door's of Durin had not been opened for decades. The Fellowshpip were seated round the door. The Watcher attacked and the doors caved in, yet Gollum was later found inside. Did he find another way in, or did he really slip in unnoticed?
Why was Sam in the vision of Hobbiton?
The Mirror shows many things. Things that were, things that are and some things that have not yet come to pass....yet in the mirror Frodo the Shire afalme and Hobbits enslaved but why was Sam there? If it was the future he was seeing, surely Sam wouldn't have been there when all that was supposed to be happening?
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Post subject: Posted: December 11th, 2006, 4:05 pm |
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Joined: 29 November 2006 Posts: 18 Location: New York
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yeah, i always wondered about seeing Sam in Hobbiton when it's "aflame". I'm thinking that that's the future that would have come to pass had Frodo and Sam never left the Shire...maybe. Or maybe that's what would have happened had Bilbo never performed the party trick.
Good point on the issue of Elrond letting Isildur get away. It would have been a lot easier had he just shoved him over the edge.
Gollum must have snuck in unnoticed. As he'd been following them for some days, he must have found it easy to remain unseen during all the rubble and panic.
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Post subject: Posted: December 11th, 2006, 10:12 pm |
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Joined: 03 August 2006 Posts: 680
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im not too sure about the whole sam in the mirror thing but...
i think it would have just been to easy to say " o elrond ran after him and took the ring...boom things are good.....besides it wouldn't have been that " elven" of him, if you get what im trying to say.
gollum might have sliped in unnoticed or...my sister says she thinks there is a way in through the misty mount.
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Post subject: Posted: December 12th, 2006, 2:49 am |
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Joined: 25 November 2006 Posts: 680 Location: India
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Oh goodie! I was thinking of asking the same question a last week but somehow couldn't.*silly me* I realised that a lot of questions are unanswered after years of reading the books and watching the movies,it's a little foolish of me to notice it now. But I am like that. If someone knows the answer then go ahead and enlighten me.*not litarally lol*
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Post subject: Re: Questions....questions.... Posted: December 18th, 2006, 9:50 am |
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Joined: 16 March 2006 Posts: 20465 Location: Gondolin Country:
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Johnny's Fan wrote: Why didn't Elrond remove the Ring from Isildur?
Now Elrond was very much full of doom and gloom about the Ring and all that happened. So why, when Isildur failed to destroy the Ring, did he let him walk away? Surely he could have tackled him and the Ring could somehow have fallen into the larva? And if destroying the Ring was so important would it not have been worth the sacrafice of one who had been "taken" by the Ring?
Yeah that's the one I ALWAYS wonder about! If I were Elrond, I wouldn't have taken the ring from him.. I'd have just shoved him over the edge of the cliff and let the ring and Isildur both fall in.. like you said.. it should be worth the sacrifice if it destroyed something so evil. It's better to have ONE Isildur being killed by it than hundreds of thousands of Elves and Men fighting against it (and being killed in the process) in the future!
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Post subject: Posted: December 22nd, 2006, 11:36 am |
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Joined: 17 October 2006 Posts: 2763 Location: England
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I definitely wouldn't have let Isildur just walk away. Surely Elrond knew how important it was that the Ring was destroyed? Of course, he could just be so weary from battle that he did not have the heart to chase after Isildur, but I stil think that it's a bit bizarre....
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Post subject: Re: Questions....questions.... Posted: December 27th, 2006, 5:04 pm |
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Joined: 19 September 2006 Posts: 2126 Location: england
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i'll give it a shot.
Norrington's Lady wrote: Why didn't Elrond remove the Ring from Isildur?
Now Elrond was very much full of doom and gloom about the Ring and all that happened. So why, when Isildur failed to destroy the Ring, did he let him walk away? Surely he could have tackled him and the Ring could somehow have fallen into the larva? And if destroying the Ring was so important would it not have been worth the sacrafice of one who had been "taken" by the Ring? i agree that it doesn't make sense for elrond to let isildur go without a fight, but probably the best way to answer this is to look at the possible (more logical) alternatives to the given scenario: 1) elrond could rugby tackle isuldur, snatch the ring and destroy it himself - all very well and good, but then there'd be no story 2) elrond could tackle isildur to try and get the ring and isildur could kill elrond and keep the ring - possible, but then who would ever have known that isildur had the ring? i know there was the scroll isildur wrote, but that was a personal record that gandalf only found because he already knew from elrond that isildur had taken the ring. without elrond alive and a witness, gandalf wouldn't have been able to trace the ring to frodo 3) isildur could have taken the ring secretly so elrond wouldnt have been able to stop him - again, no-one would have known what happened to the ring so, it was necessary to the plot to have elrond see isildur take the ring but fail to stop him. i think it's a case of literary technique over logic - it doesn't make sense, but tolkien had to write it like that or there wouldn't have been a story Quote: What would have happened if Bilbo had taken the Ring to Rivendell?
If he had not performed his "party trick" thereby making Gandalf suspicious and if he had actually survived the journey to Rivendell woud Elrond have sensed it's presence? And what would he have done? Would the Council still have been called? elrond had already been in the presence of the ring (bilbo stopped off in rivendell on his return from the lonely mountain at the end of the hobbit, and i get the impression that bilbo had kept visiting from time to time) and hadn't sensed it, so i don't think he would have done if bilbo had taken the ring with him to rivendell when he left after the party. in that case, he wouldn't have done anything and i reckon it would still have taken gandalf until 17 years after the party to work out that he had the one ring, and the only real difference would be that bilbo would have had the ring for an extra 17 years in which time he could have become even more corrupted, and that could only be bad. the people present at the council of elrond came on missions separate to discovery of the ring, so they would have come whoever had the ring, and the council would still have gone ahead. Quote: How did Gollum get into Moria?
The Door's of Durin had not been opened for decades. The Fellowshpip were seated round the door. The Watcher attacked and the doors caved in, yet Gollum was later found inside. Did he find another way in, or did he really slip in unnoticed? i'm really not sure about that one. i seem to recall reading somewhere that he was already in there, but that doesn't entirely make sense. i'll have to do a little more investigating Quote: Why was Sam in the vision of Hobbiton?
The Mirror shows many things. Things that were, things that are and some things that have not yet come to pass....yet in the mirror Frodo the Shire afalme and Hobbits enslaved but why was Sam there? If it was the future he was seeing, surely Sam wouldn't have been there when all that was supposed to be happening?
that was just a vision of what could happen if things went a certain way. i guess depending on the manner in which the enemy regained the ring, sam could have ended up back in the shire. it does seem unlikely though, and i'd say it was the filmmakers not thinking things through very well.
(and just a random aside - i've seen the model that they used for the burning mill in that vision)
i hope that all makes sense. if i've made any mistakes, please correct me.
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Post subject: Posted: December 28th, 2006, 7:36 am |
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Joined: 02 January 2006 Posts: 5728 Location: Mithlond Country:
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Okay, as to why Elrond didn't take the Ring from Isildur, I have no idea. That's always puzzled me as well.
If Bilbo had taken the Ring to Rivendell, first of all, he probably would've been ambushed, killed, and lost the Ring. If he did survive, though, I doubt that Elrond would've known about the Ring, but Gandalf was already suspicious about the Ring--he knew all about it already from the adventures in The Hobbit, so his being surpised the movie was just something PJ put in there--Gandalf already knew the Ring could make someone go invisible.
Now as to how Gollum got into Moria, he had actually been in Moria for months by the time the Fellowship arrived. He had entered from the other side, and was hiding there from the Elves and Orcs that were looking for him. So when he crossed, he ended up finding the Fellowship.
As to why Sam was in the Mirror vision, that's already been answered.
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Post subject: Re: Questions....questions.... Posted: December 28th, 2006, 10:43 am |
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Joined: 04 June 2005 Posts: 13518 Location: Skógum Svíþjóðar Country:
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Norrington's Lady wrote: How did Gollum get into Moria?
The Door's of Durin had not been opened for decades. The Fellowshpip were seated round the door. The Watcher attacked and the doors caved in, yet Gollum was later found inside. Did he find another way in, or did he really slip in unnoticed?
He knows the Misty Mountains very well, after all he hid there for hundreds of years didn't he? He probably knows every single secret passage in and out of the mountains, he could easily have found his way inside! Norrington's Lady wrote: Why was Sam in the vision of Hobbiton?
The Mirror shows many things. Things that were, things that are and some things that have not yet come to pass....yet in the mirror Frodo the Shire afalme and Hobbits enslaved but why was Sam there? If it was the future he was seeing, surely Sam wouldn't have been there when all that was supposed to be happening?
What Frodo saw was the "Scouring of the Shire", what really happens in the book when the Hobbits return to the Shire after the destruction of the ring.
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Post subject: Posted: December 28th, 2006, 6:43 pm |
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When everything being said about Isildur keeping the Ring for the sake of the plot, I would like to add my thoughts.
I always saw it as a perfect compliance of the right to private ownership. Isildur cut the ring off Sauron's hand, thus it becomes Isildur's ring. What right did Elrond have to force it from Isildur, his good friend and ally? Had he done so, he would have been a thief and possibly a murderer... Also, I'm not sure Elrond knew how much trouble it would cause them later on that the ring wasn't destroyed. He might have thought Sauron was defeated on the battle field and that Isildur would succeed in using the ring for good.
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Post subject: Posted: December 28th, 2006, 10:54 pm |
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Joined: 03 August 2006 Posts: 680
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^ thats a good point. but i do have to say i think elrond knew what would happen to some extent or else he wouldn't have push isildur to destroy it.
i do agree though that maybe he had in his mind that its not his to take and he would never forcfully take it.
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Post subject: Posted: January 1st, 2007, 7:35 pm |
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Joined: 23 October 2005 Posts: 8345 Location: Rivendell Country:
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they're in a volcano, maybe it was the gases affecting him.
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Post subject: Re: Questions....questions.... Posted: January 1st, 2007, 10:25 pm |
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Joined: 03 January 2006 Posts: 13134 Location: Canada Country:
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Haldir o Lórien wrote: Johnny's Fan wrote: Why didn't Elrond remove the Ring from Isildur?
Now Elrond was very much full of doom and gloom about the Ring and all that happened. So why, when Isildur failed to destroy the Ring, did he let him walk away? Surely he could have tackled him and the Ring could somehow have fallen into the larva? And if destroying the Ring was so important would it not have been worth the sacrafice of one who had been "taken" by the Ring?
Yeah that's the one I ALWAYS wonder about! If I were Elrond, I wouldn't have taken the ring from him.. I'd have just shoved him over the edge of the cliff and let the ring and Isildur both fall in.. like you said.. it should be worth the sacrifice if it destroyed something so evil. It's better to have ONE Isildur being killed by it than hundreds of thousands of Elves and Men fighting against it (and being killed in the process) in the future!
I dont remember where, but i read that if you were take the ring from some one who had it, or forced them to do something with it, it would break tehir mind, i think Gandalf said it in FotR(book)...
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Post subject: Posted: May 27th, 2007, 4:20 pm |
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Joined: 06 May 2007 Posts: 93
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i can't anser the question why elrond didn't took the ring from isildur and casted it into the fire, because i don't know. i know i would have fought against isildur, even if it ment my end. but think of it like this, isildur was his friend and there was a great possibility that he would fall into lava, perhaps elrond didn't wanted to risk it?
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