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PostPosted: January 6th, 2006, 3:48 pm 
Balrog
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*smiles* Just had see what this was about and had to comment.... She was tempted by the ring because she weilded one of the three rings, and that is the reasoning Gandalf was tempted by it as well... I personally respect Boromir, for in the end, he died to save the hobbits, and that is a mighty sacrifice, and that is how he willingly paid for his temptation...

Oh, and a comment on the elves... No one is perfect, not even elves... *grins* And we have the nine, do we not? The weak mortal men, who caused emense trouble later on in their wraith form...

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2006, 3:55 pm 
Gondorian
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Silmarwen Idril wrote:
*smiles* Just had see what this was about and had to comment.... She was tempted by the ring because she weilded one of the three rings, and that is the reasoning Gandalf was tempted by it as well... I personally respect Boromir, for in the end, he died to save the hobbits, and that is a mighty sacrifice, and that is how he willingly paid for his temptation...


True indeed. Boromir's death must be considered as one of the biggest sacrifices in the whole triology, right after Frodo for making his decision to carry the ring alone and to destroy it.... he had the biggest sacrifice and eventually would die also if he didnt sail to Valinor.

And yet there are many more sacrifices that we do not see openly, and that was the sacrifice of plain elves, men and dwarves alike of different lineage and skill in their efforts to defend their homes and many of them lost their lives along also. We must not forget that fact.... its one of those hidden elements of the story


Silmarwen Idril wrote:
Oh, and a comment on the elves... No one is perfect, not even elves... *grins* And we have the nine, do we not? The weak mortal men, who caused emense trouble later on in their wraith form...


True my friend, but still.... where was the source for the nine kings to fall into darkness? The problem lies deeper within.... not on the surface where we see them as the Nazgul *wink*

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Last edited by Aemornion on January 6th, 2006, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2006, 7:15 pm 
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*smirks* But that, my friend, does not doom the reputation of the race of elves... the true problem started during the beginning of times, when someone decided to play their own kind of music...

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2006, 9:08 pm 
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Silmarwen Idril wrote:
*smirks* But that, my friend, does not doom the reputation of the race of elves... the true problem started during the beginning of times, when someone decided to play their own kind of music...


Well, i wouldnt delve that deep into the history and all the way to the Music of Ainur....its a huge nut to crack. I would rather stick to the times when both men and elves growed independent and made choices alone... ;)

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PostPosted: January 6th, 2006, 9:32 pm 
Balrog
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*chuckles* Very well. I must state my honest opinion... the elves at times thought too much of themselves, that they could not be effected by such things, then when the race of men continued the trouble, mostly the elves said it was not their problem, and that's why in the movie, the battle of Helms Deep should not have had elves... So elves basically have an ego complex. I personally love elves because they are wise, ageless, and the essence of grace, but as I said before, even elves have their faults, and their faults are most of the time due to their agelessness. They see many years go by and they think themselves superior because of this, but that does not go for all elves, mind you...

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 10:22 am 
Gondorian
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Bingo, you nailed it Silm!

Thats what i thought would had been my conclusion alike. They have a high opinion of themselfs (not all like you said) but i tried dodging the books aside and focused only on the movie only. Elrond and Galadriel seemed so egoistic at one point that it acctualy looked like everything was the fault of men and they blamed the "weaker" race becouse of the things happening and like you said, they do not care about the fate of that race. But now we got a whole contradiction to that feeling at the appearence of Haldir in Helms Deep.... Dont know what was the point exept an action scene but i think here PJ could had done a little more better mood balance...

In the books there is a better balance in my opinion

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 10:43 am 
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Agreed. A much better balance lies within the book, and that is why I much prefer the books. Putting the elves in Helms Deep really confuses things as to where the elves stand...

My older brother saw the movie, but didn't give a second glance at the book. I tried to get him to read it, insisting he missed the whole deal if he hasn't read it, lol, but at least I got my Dad to promise to read it.

Anyway... I'm straying off the subject here... please, continue your fine debate, and I might interupt ever so often ^^

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 10:51 am 
Gondorian
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Well, no use in staying off subject if i dont have a competitive debater ;)

But since we agreed on the (off)topic it seems to me this case is closed. Atleast between us.....for now *grins*

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 10:57 am 
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*chuckles* I do believe Haldir yeilded to the subject as well... As long as she's not too upset over my statement. *smirks* But heh, I love elves too, and if there was anything I could be in Middle Earth (oh how I wish it existed!) it would be an elf.

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 11:10 am 
Gondorian
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Well, honestly...dont we all wish to be the person we created here? *smiles*

I hope Haldir didn't take the topic to serious, i know she has love for the elves and I "attacked" her kinded in a certain way, so Haldir, if you read this, forgive me *smile*

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 11:19 am 
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Well, I 'attacked' in an equal manner, so I shall ask for forgiveness also, but I do think the statements are taken differently when they are given by a fellow lady *grins* And a long time friend...

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 2:15 pm 
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Owh, seems you guys have been busy over the night! Do you even know what you're discussing anymore??? Lol
*holds up sign reading* Topic: Boromir's Gift
So if you don't mind, I'll catch up on the relevant topic which was lost somewhere on page two...

Galadriel is able to see a possible future... not meaning the future as it is actual gonna be, because the future is unpredictable and is created every moment. In fact she states it herself: Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. My point: Galadriel saw the desire in Boromir's mind but eventually he and others would form the future through their induvidual choices and way of actions. All this together would make up the 'future' in the end.

Yes, people (Rohan and Gondor) might have been speaking ill of the White Lady but simply because they didn't know much about elves, and people fear the unknown. And Lothlorien was off limit for mortal races.

Boromir's death... First of all death is never a smart option. However, based on who he was, his upbringing, his values, Boromir's only option was fighting so basically he just did what he was meant to do.
PJ did quite send his own little Uruk-hai army against the Fellowship and even Merry and Pippin tried to fight them.
Tolkien obviously killed Boromir for reasons concerning the general plot. (He made Boromir trigger the breaking of the fellowship because he was tepmted by the ring and also had to get rid of the line of the Steward to clear the way for Aragorn.)

Off topic: Elves...Silm, what elves are you talking about? PJ's elves are annoyingly perfect, but Tolkien's elves mostly tend to be the opposite (at least in Silmarillion). Tolkien's elves are superior to other races but every feeling and emotion they have, and every action they take is so much more powerful to match that superiority and in that way causing so much more damage and destruction or beauty and love.

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 2:37 pm 
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Oooh, much agreed, Ea, much agreed!

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 3:06 pm 
Gondorian
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Eä wrote:
Yes, people (Rohan and Gondor) might have been speaking ill of the White Lady but simply because they didn't know much about elves, and people fear the unknown. And Lothlorien was off limit for mortal races.


Yes, this can be true, but why have the elves put such distance from the Men and dwarves alike. I cannot recall a place where only men were welcome, instead we have that example with Lothlorien. Here goes to prove once again that Elves consider themself superiour to other races.... But enough of this matter, offtopic again

Eä wrote:
Tolkien obviously killed Boromir for reasons concerning the general plot. (He made Boromir trigger the breaking of the fellowship because he was tepmted by the ring and also had to get rid of the line of the Steward to clear the way for Aragorn.)


I wouldnt agree with this! Why get rid of Boromir since Faramir is also the rightful Steward (Boromir was 5 years older so he was entitled for the task, like any firstborn)? Okay, maybe it was for the plot and the fact to prove to all how the ring is dangerous alone (witch i think was the main reason why Tolkien "killed" him)

As far as my Gondorian history is correct, if the King returns and is proven as the rightful heir then the stewards do not have any more goverment over Gondor, only thing they can govern are the countries that are the part of the Gondorian empire (Ithilien, Anorien, Dol Amroth, Belfallas, Lossnarch...) and they are then not called stewards but princes. Faramir became later the Prince of Ithillien after the king returned....same would had been with Boromir

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 3:15 pm 
Balrog
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Without Boromir's death, Denethor's greif would not have been so desparing, and hence he would not have been so easily turned to madness by the deception of Souron by way of the Plantir. That is another reason why Boromir's death was so important to the plot, other than revealing how the Ring can twist and lure the minds of even the strongest and bravest of the race of Men.

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PostPosted: January 7th, 2006, 3:39 pm 
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Think that Denethor was more driven to madness by the fact that the Ring lies in the hands of a simple hobbit that walks into Mordor virtually alone, and here lies the source for his wrath against Faramir for he let Frodo go. (becouse of it Faramir feels guilt and failure and hence rides out onto Osgiliath at his fathers orders. Virtually he was ran up against a brick wall by him)

The death of Boromir had more influence on his brother for he managed to percieve the fact what the ring can do. If he didnt saw the dead body of his brother he would have never guessed the power of the ring and it would be likely that Frodo would had been brought to Minas Tirith.

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