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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: October 29th, 2016, 6:44 pm 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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Quote:
"Arise, Arise, Riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered, a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride for ruin, and the world's ending! Death!"
-Theoden

It was quite an inspiring speech to give, and inspire was what the Rohirrim needed in that hour, for it appeared going in that they were on a suicide charge to honour the friendship and alliance and the Oath of Cirion and Eorl!

This speech, the clashing of spears, and the charge was one of the best scenes in the movies!

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: October 31st, 2016, 3:54 pm 
Gondorian
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I don't know what I think of this speech. It seems way more discouraging than encouraging. It's like saying in a really enthusiastic and inspiring voice, "We're all going to die!" The tone sounds nice, but if you listen or say it in a different voice, it sounds terrible. I liked Aragorn's hope speech better.

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: November 3rd, 2016, 9:35 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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I have to admit, it is a kind of "we are all going to die" speach... But at the same time (and this might apeal to guys more) it's one of those things where they all KNOW Sauron is going to come for them sooner or later. So they basically know they are going to die either now or later, and so they are choosing their battle and going out with a fight. Going down with their boots on so to speak. (So they think)

It's kind of like Theoden says that other place, "If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end to be worthy of remembrance!" (I am thinking that was Helms deep but can't swear to it)

In a weird sort of way it really is a supper inspiring type of attitude... That if we are going to die we are going to take a hundred of you down with every one of us, we are going to make you rue the day you sought out this fight, and make such an end we will be remembered for history.

If that makes sense... Lol

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: November 5th, 2016, 7:15 pm 
Gondorian
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Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I think you are right about that being a guy thing :).

It is inspiring for a nation about to set foot in a pretty much hopeless war, but I would have picked something a little more uplifting, I guess. Like talking about what happens if we win, or maybe something along the lines of, "this isnt over yet" or "we fight to be free." (that one was cheesy, i know, but you get the idea.) Does that make sense? It might actually just be a girl thing:p

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: November 6th, 2016, 4:33 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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Haha, I get what you are saying. It probably is mainly just a gender thing in many ways. I guess it would have been a little more inspiring to give them some hope of survival but I reckon most of them would have just felt like he was lying to them in a way... since none of them figured there was any chance any of them would survive.

But yeah, I think women tend to be a little more encouraging in that way as a general rule and men tend to be inspired more so by the type of speech Theoden gave.

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: June 17th, 2018, 11:04 pm 
Gondorian
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It is awesome! Especially with the music it sound even better!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: June 19th, 2018, 2:55 pm 
Istari
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Guy thing – very likely. But you’re all thinking in the wrong century, more likely the wrong millennium. It is an echo of what JRRT himself called the “Northern Spirit”, more precisely the “Ragnarök Spirit” of Norse mythology. “Ragnarök”, translated by Richard Wagner in his operas to “Götterdämmerung” (twilight of the gods), is something that the Norse Gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki all know is going to happen, and they also all know that they are going to die in this battle (and Loki is the father of not a few monsters who are going to be on the other side, facing the Norse Gods – so antiheroes are not really a new invention). Point is, their reaction to this knowledge of ultimate (personal) defeat is, in modern terms, “so what?” Winning does not make you right, losing, as their doom will be, does not make you wrong. The Rohirrim at this moment are more Norse that Anglo-Saxon, to whom they have been compared by many including JRRT.

And I’ll risk a reprimand by Hanasian about mixing films and books again. Well, PJ compressed stuff from the books, about which I have my decided and not complimentary opinions. So I’ll disentangle a mess from the films into the “clarity” of the books. Théoden effectively repeated Fëanor’s maddened charge from the Silmarillion. With the similarly deadly effect. When Éomer and the other Rohirrim realized that Théoden had been killed (and totally oversaw that Éowyn had survived her awesome feat of destroying the Witch-king), they became really NOT amused. This is when they charged at their enemies only roaring one single word repeatedly: Death! Death! Death! When they started to take out Mûmakil, and at least fought the Mordor forces to a standstill – allowing Aragorn and his unexpected reinforcement to really tip the scales seriously. But they did not know that these reinforcement were coming (and Denethor misread the sign of Aragorn’s black pennant – or perhaps he didn’t and was not willing to surrender his stewardship as Faramir shortly later did).

They didn’t care that it looked likely that they would lose. They had come to what they believed correctly was the ultimate battle to decide their future (not just theirs, but from their viewpoint certainly theirs, their freedom). Like Winston Churchill’s 13 May 1940 speech about “blood, toil, tears and sweat”. Over a year before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union. A year and a half before Japan attacked the US in Pearl Harbor. When Hitler looked invincible. So what?

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2018, 6:13 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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Gandolorin wrote:
I’ll risk a reprimand by Hanasian about mixing films and books again.


Bring up the books anytime when discussing the movies, as it was primary source material. But never should the movies be brought up when discussing the books in the book forums, for the books stand well above the Peter Jackson fanfics and owe nothing to them, whereas the Peter Jackson fanfics owe everything the the books. You should know that Gando.

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden's Speech
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2018, 2:00 pm 
Istari
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Hanasian wrote:
Gandolorin wrote:
I’ll risk a reprimand by Hanasian about mixing films and books again.


Bring up the books anytime when discussing the movies, as it was primary source material. But never should the movies be brought up when discussing the books in the book forums, for the books stand well above the Peter Jackson fanfics and owe nothing to them, whereas the Peter Jackson fanfics owe everything the the books. You should know that Gando.

If by “know” you mean that you, as I do, and as several others here on A-U do (mostly us “old geezers”?), place the books very far above the movies, very much yes.

But to repeat what I have posted (almost) endlessly here and elsewhere: possible movie versions could have been immensely worse than PJ’s. Never mind that any kind of cartoon, let alone CGI technology had to develop to a point where it could become visually believable. As documented in the book “Letters” the storylines proposed in the late 1950s for the first attempt at a LoTR film would have been an unmitigated disaster. And even in the late 1990s, PJ & Co.’s original two-film treatment was for a short time thought by the usual unimaginative suits to be needing a compression to one film (with character compressions which would have made Ralph Bakshi’s 1978 enhanced cartoon seen canon) before a thought a bacteria would have been capable of arose: 3 books, 3 films.

Commenting on the four books in the twelve-volume HoME dealing specifically with LoTR (volumes 6 to 9), Tom Shippey noted that JRRT managed to avoid in the published “trilogy” what some moronic critics accused him of doing, of being too “soft-hearted”, too “black and-white” with his heroes and villains. The “critics” being thunderously blind to Boromir, Denethor and Frodo. And to the, admittedly slight, possibilities of repentance of Gríma and most of all Gollum. Meh – even Gorbag (of Minas Morgul) and Shagrat (captain of Cirith Ungol) weren’t purely bad. 99%, but not 100% (a vague guess).

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