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The palantír used by Saruman
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22448		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Farandor [ January 4th, 2013, 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  The palantír used by Saruman
Does anyone know the real size of the palantír? It's more than 4cm diameter of sphere?
Author:  Anameleth [ January 4th, 2013, 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
I think the size of the Palantír in the movies is about right, which would be about 20cm in diameter. Although if I'm not entirely mistaken, there was a really big one in Osgiliath which was more powerful than the others. It's been a while since I read about this though, so I may be wrong.
Author:  Hanasian [ August 27th, 2016, 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Anameleth wrote:
I think the size of the Palantír in the movies is about right, which would be about 20cm in diameter. Although if I'm not entirely mistaken, there was a really big one in Osgiliath which was more powerful than the others. It's been a while since I read about this though, so I may be wrong.


There is a good write-up in Unfinished Tales. The movie got the Orthanc Stone about right. There were larger stones in Osgiliath and Amon Sul, but both were lost by the time the War of the Ring came.
Author:  Captain Boromir [ August 30th, 2016, 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
So was the one that Denethor had separate from Osgiliath's?
Author:  Jax Nova [ August 31st, 2016, 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
According to what I read the stones varied in size. Some were small and some (The master stone which is likely what Hanasian is speaking of) that was said to be too big for a human to even lift.

Interestingly enough it also says that they were not supposed to be able to transmit any sound. Only images. But another place says they could "Mentally communicate."
And they were directional. Only the master stones could look and turn in any direction but the others if you wanted to look East you had to look into if from the west and so on.

The palantir of Osgiliath was a different one that Denathor had to my understanding but I am not sure whether the one at Osgiliath was supposed to be there or be lost in the movie. The LOTR online game suggests in it's stories that the one from Osgiliath was taken by Sauron to Carn Dum to communicate with the Witch King... whatever that may be worth...
Author:  Hanasian [ September 2nd, 2016, 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
The Palantír that Denethor used was the Minas Anor stone that was originally set in the tower there. The stone Sauron had was the Minas Ithil stone that was captured when that city fell. The city names changed from Minas Anor to Minas Tirith, and Minis Ithil to Minas Morgul. The stone of Osgiliath was lost in the Anduin when the first battle of Osgiliath ruined the place. How the stone got from a city tower into the river is open to speculation. I would guess maybe the tower was near the river and it fell when the tower was destroyed, or (this is the fanfic writer in me typing) it was initially captured by the enemy but they were destroyed trying to cross back over the river with it and it was lost.

Now I need to go re-read Unfinished Tales about the Seeing Stones! :)
Author:  Jax Nova [ September 3rd, 2016, 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Haha lol. Yeah. The idea of the Osgiliath stone being in Carn Dum is from the inline game. Certainly not from original lore but it's a neat idea. Whether it was claimed to have been lost and wasn't or whether Saruman supposedly recovered from the river after the battle I am not sure.
Author:  Hanasian [ September 4th, 2016, 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Saruman had been entrusted with the Keys of Orthanc by Steward Beren, and so was then considered a Warden of Gondor. When Saruman Entered the Ring of Isengard and unlocked the doors of Orthanc, he found the Orthanc Stone Palantir was still in place. I guess the interesting thing about Isengard and the Tower of Orthanc was it was at the beginning of the Third Age, one of the strong fortress towers of the Kingdom of Gondor. When the deal between Steward Cirion and Eorl came and the land of Calenardhon was given to the Northmen and Rohan was established, the fortress of Aglarond, later called the Hornburg, was given over as well, while the fortress of Angrenost, also known as Orthanc, was not. Sometime afterward, Gondor quit manning Orthanc, and the doors were locked and the site abandoned. The Dunlandings occupied the Ring of Isengard, but could not breach or enter Orthanc. I guess I wonder whyit was abandoned by Gondor, and why the Palantir of Orthanc wasnt removed when the did abandon the place.
Author:  Jax Nova [ September 4th, 2016, 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Huh.... That does seem realy odd. It doesn't make any sense to abandone such a fortress and certainly not to leave the palantir. Interesting bit of history, though!
Author:  Hanasian [ September 4th, 2016, 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
I'm reading Unfinished Tales about the Palantiri now. I think the reason was the use of the Palantiri by the Gondorians had diminished through the years and they all fell into disuse, was because they were only used by the Kings and their appointed Wardens. With the passing of the Kings, the line of Stewards took up the role, and so Saruman was officially an appointed Warden of Orthanc by Steward Beren. But the Palantiri were not widely used even in their hey day. They became quite dangerous to use after Sauron acquired the Ithil stone. That was why it was a big deal that Denethor dared to use the Anor stone in Minas Tirith, and Aragorn challenging Sauron with the Orthanc Stone, and why it was such a big deal that Pippen looked into it.

I need to study more on the period of Gondor history and find out why Isengard was abandoned in that time.
Author:  Jax Nova [ September 5th, 2016, 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
I see. I guess that makes sense. So when you say appointed by Steward Beren is this Beren as in Beren and Luthian? Or another Beren?

And Insuspect it became dangerouse because most of the time they gave away more information than they acquired theough the use?
Author:  Evil.Shieldmaiden [ September 5th, 2016, 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Beren Erchamion (the 'One-Handed), husband of Lúthien lived in the First Age, and died c. 503.

Beren, the Steward of Gondor, lived in the Third Age - c. 2655 to 2763.
Author:  Jax Nova [ September 5th, 2016, 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Ok. Lol I was going to say.... I was thinking that Beren should have been dead by then but I had not heard of this other one before so I was unaware that there were two characters by that name.
Author:  Hanasian [ September 6th, 2016, 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Tolkien was good at recycling names.
Author:  Jax Nova [ September 7th, 2016, 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
Well, it's realistic that way I suspect. How many hundreds of years could you possibly go without the name cropping up somewhere else? *shrugs* I think it makes it more realistic anyways.
Author:  Evil.Shieldmaiden [ September 8th, 2016, 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The palantír used by Saruman
It's also possible that Beren of Gondor was named in honour of Beren Erchamion, although that is pure speculation on my part.

BTW - I love your new avatar, Jax.
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