I don't know if it is just me or but haven't you notice that the Gondorians tend to die a lot more easily than the other Good warriors. Like 3/4 of the Gondor vs. Mordor battle scene, a Gondorian is killed. Of course a quarter of the three quarters are the Nazgul and trolls killing them. But the rest of it is just Orcs killing them. Really, weren't Orcs supposed to be something like cannon fodder for Mordor. Or as Gondor's soldiers gone super weak...

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I was cured all right.

I wouldnt quite agree with you upon this one.

Gondor forever was and is the strongest military might in Middle-Earth. You can consider it as the Roman empire of its time. I would hardly call them weak.

The thing what PJ did was to add weight into the scenes that men acctualy die in battle. Thats why he had to put a good deal of deaths to the good side. In my opinion it was well balanced and both sides counted the loss. Honestly i think it would be unrealistic if such a large troll could be killed by one or two men. The scene where Grond broke the Main Gate in Minas Tirith and when the trolls charged in was devastating but it showed that casualties needed to be counted on both sides.

In the books its also very well explained but there we use our own imagination in battle scenes, here we had a very good director that made the vision for us. Some people accepted it, some didnt.

We all take more to our hearts when we see the good side get robbed of another soul. I know i felt also uncomfortable when those poor men got hammered down but will we accept it or not...its the way of the battle

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I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the Warrior for his glory. I love the homeland which they defend.

Aemornion, the Gondorian army was not the strongest army in Middle-earth, at least not always, as you said it was. The Elves, and the dwarves, in the days when their numbers were greater, were still better than the Gondorians, in discipline, weapons, etc.

But yeah, it seems that whenever PJ wanted to make it seem like one side was losing, tons of soldiers from that side got killed with minimal losses to the enemy.

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All depends on what age we are viewing at Aerandir. I agree i was a bit hasty in my wording. Gondor had its up's and downs like all.

The peak of its might i believe it was around 3430. of the 2nd age, some 100 years after the realm was established and was under the rule of Elendil's sons and just before Minas Ithil was attacked and the outbreak of war was at hand. The strength remained until somewhere around 1400.-1500. of the 3rd age when the civil war did break out thus damaging hardly Osgiliath and afterwards the land was ravaged by the plague around 1600. After that it went slowly downhill.

Minas Ithil got captured in 2002 and in 2050. Earnur got slain while attempting to retake it. No more kings after that. Stewards governed the land and the might withered along all the way until the end of the third age when the land was very well deserted.

But please note that also at this time as the elves begun to leave Middle Earth and so they also dwindled. Dwarves crawled up their caverns and thus begun to seek riches on their own. As you can see, all races dwindled then. True, the skill of craft was on the dwarven and the elvish side, but you cannot deny the fact that Gondor was most included in holding Mordor at bay. Elves and dwarves did not care about it so much.

So if you look it from the view who had most dealings with Mordor thus giving out the most battles against it (starting from 3320 S.A. when the realm was established) it was Gondor.

My apologies for not making a clear argumented post before this one and not stating my views with arguments.

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I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the Warrior for his glory. I love the homeland which they defend.

Yeah, that's true enough. Early Gondor was definately very powerful, though IMHO, at the same time, the Elves were still powerful. Around the time of Mardil the Steward, I'd say the Elves were more powerful than the Gondorians, though thanks to their choice of lands for their kingdoms, they did not bear the brunt as much as Gondor and Arnor did. So....It really does depend on which point in time you're talking about, because it really does seem to have kind of varied.

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I agree certainly. Most of the elven lands were pretty much distanced from first battle-line front, they could evolve in peace and become more powerful without any doubts. Rivendell and Lothlorien were the safe havens for ther kin, Mirkwood had its up's and down's alike but still that was much lesser involvment then the that of the Gondorians. But if we talk regarding expererience in war i would say Gondor has the upper hand.

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I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the Warrior for his glory. I love the homeland which they defend.

I'm not sure I agree with you entirely on that point - the Elves had been there long before the Gondorians and Arnorians. They were combating Sauron a long time before the Numenoreans. So, in terms of combat experience, it really depends on whether the Elves we're talking about were born before or after the arrival of Elendil & Co.

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Yes, but that was the early 2nd age, but if we are talking after the faundation of Gondor then i hold on to my opinion.

I would draw the end line here, we had been talking about the movie version where we agreed on the statements and that was the topic of this thread anyway. Considering the books, we can ramble into eternity on who was better and who wasnt. It's all relative and depends on the timeline.

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I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the Warrior for his glory. I love the homeland which they defend.

True enough. We could ramble on for ages about who was stronger.

Anyways, I hold to my opinion that in the movies, when PJ wanted one side to seem to be losing, they died more on camera than the other side. That's my opinion, which is why the Gondorians seem so weak.

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We are talking about the battle on Pelennor fields, aye? But Gondor did win!!

Don't you think Mordor had an unfaily big army compared to the handful Gondor and Rohan could conjure up? So even though Gondor was a minority they still won, meaning that one Gondorian in terms of percentages would have had to kill a lot more enemies than the opposing side had to.

As you said, Nazgûl, trolls and oliphants are harder to kill and makes a lot more damage than an orc, but in terms of orcs I think the numbers count a lot. Even though orcs may be stupid, they are still natural born killers by instinct and all of them had sharp pointy weapons. Not a pleasant encounter...!

Speaking of the movie as a media and what mechanisms work when telling a story, identification means a lot. We identify with the 'good' ones and want to see them defeat their enemies. In order to emphasize the importance of the battle, PJ had to show the loss on the Gondorian side. He wanted the audience to identify with them, to stirr our emotions and empathy.

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They were not weak. Just Denethor was the weak so they could not be managed well at war against orcs. You saw that under good managment they crushed the orcs. They have no weakness at all.

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Will be going to London on March of the 30th

You just named it. Nazgul!
Before Rohan arrived, Nazgul were screaming all over the place. And it is known that the scream of a Nazgul awakens your deepest fears. That's why the Gondorians couldn't do much in the beginning. They were overthrown by their own fears.

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I would have kicked the butts off that orcs if i was there


-Angrod

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I'm a Lotr-Fan, and i love Hip-Hop and Rap. They don't mix, i know.

Now please correct me if I am wrong, but I've got the impression that Nazgûl would scare the living soul out of any creature - including orcs? Orcs don't differ so much from men and elves after all...
I know this is a movie discussion but I was just wondering what it says in the books...

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