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 Post subject: i 've always been confused about the history of orcs....
PostPosted: December 21st, 2005, 8:14 pm 
Ent
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i know that there was like that they were once elves.. but what happened?? (i'm dying someone please answer my quistion!)


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PostPosted: December 21st, 2005, 11:06 pm 
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Basicly, Morgoth took Elves, tortured them enough so that they eventually became Orcs.

If anyone else would like to add something to this, be my guest. :)


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PostPosted: December 21st, 2005, 11:11 pm 
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but what was the whole thing that they came out of the ground? in the movie?

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PostPosted: December 21st, 2005, 11:35 pm 
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Well, I'm assuming that the first Orcs were created from tortured Elves. But the ones born later [in the movie], aren't made from torturing Elves, so they must be created from differently. I really not sure how... I never really understood the whole coming out of the ground thing. =/


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PostPosted: December 22nd, 2005, 3:21 pm 
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Urak-hi or however you spell it, are the ones who come out from the ground!

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PostPosted: December 22nd, 2005, 3:35 pm 
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Sorry to interrupt, but there's an interesting thread on this in the Silmarillion forum, here's the link: http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1844

I know it's 9 pages but I think the information you need is mainly on the first couple of pages and the last two...
If you don't bother to read thorugh it I'm sure some of the helpful people from the thread will gladly share their knowledge here!! :angel:

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PostPosted: December 23rd, 2005, 9:39 pm 
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I'm gonna be a cool nerd and quote my Bestiary ^^

Quote:
Within the deepest Pits of Utumno, in the First Age of Stars, it is said Melkor committed his greatest blasphemy. For in that time he captured many of the newly risen race of Elves and took them to his dungeons, and with hideous acts of torture he made ruined and terrible forms of life. From these he bred a Goblin race of slaves who were as loathsome as Elves were fair. These were the Orcs, a multitude brought forth in shapes twisted by pain and hate.


So... pretty much, he tortured them beyond all recognition and called it good. And of course torture like that can't be good for the soul, so we can see where they get so angsty. It also just says in my book that they "multiplied... from the spawning pits" and that they "bred" but it doesn't really describe how and/or whether or not there are females.... So, I think we can assume that there either are females, or that the Orcs, Uruks, etc. are asexual.

The Uruk-hai are born of breeding between Goblins and Orcs, though, if my memory serves.... Not sure if that helps at all haha.

xoxo Dim

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PostPosted: December 24th, 2005, 9:55 am 
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Orcs were not Elves, once. They were men, as Tolkien stated in one of his last works. I made a long post once in the topic Eä posted, and on page 7 is the "essay".
( http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtop ... c&start=96 )

Enjoy. Remember, not everything in the Silmarillion can be seen as "true". Some things were changed much later, in later works of Tolkien.

PS - Somehow the code's a bit messy, but you'll still be able to read most of it.

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PostPosted: December 29th, 2005, 1:03 am 
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Ahh, well, I just take reference from the books and writings I have and call it good. Though, I suppose I'll always sit with the fact, in my world, that the Orcs were once Elves.

Old habits, and thoughts, die hard ^^

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PostPosted: December 29th, 2005, 9:20 am 
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And since Tolkien made ongoing changes to his work I think it's up to our own interpretation to understand his world! :angel:

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PostPosted: December 30th, 2005, 12:40 am 
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Eä wrote:
And since Tolkien made ongoing changes to his work I think it's up to our own interpretation to understand his world! :angel:


Yeah, that's certainly how I see it. If he wasn't happy with his decisions, I'll make his decision for him for myself. If that makes any sense whatsoever haha.

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PostPosted: December 30th, 2005, 7:00 pm 
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Well, as multiple people have said, they were once elves, taken captive by Morgoth, and tortured and mutated until they were orcs. But those were just the orcs in the beginning, and the after that, they would have to be created another way. As for coming out of the ground, Gandalf told Elrond that Saruman was breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard.
Here's the quote:
Gandalf: His treachery runs deeper than you know. By foul craft, Saruman has crossed Orcs with goblin men. He's breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard. An army that can move in sunlight and cover a great distance at speed. Saruman is coming for the Ring.

Hope this helps!! :)

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PostPosted: December 31st, 2005, 5:00 pm 
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I have no idea but the movie didnt stick to the plot of the book! Sure they said arwen took frodo to rivendell, when it was githoniel. in the fellowhip of course btw

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PostPosted: December 31st, 2005, 7:17 pm 
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^ True, true. But, I guess we can't expect them to keep all the details of the book relevant in the movie. Just like how they left Tom Bombadil out. He wasn't needed to further the story, so they cut him out.

I felt like responding though it had nothing to do with Orcs haha.

Though, now my head is like, about to explode. 'Cause I've got books with an explanation about the Orcs being Elves... and then silly Tolkien changing his mind. >< *angst*

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PostPosted: January 2nd, 2006, 9:18 am 
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Elu, if you say it's not elves, you can't say it is men, because right at the end of the essay it mentions that there is no concrete theory for where the orcs come from, so if you're going to trust it on the idea that the orcs can't be elves, then you'd have to trust it that the orcs can't be men either.
I'm not meaning to be offensive or anything, just pointing out that detail.

Uraeus, I think you mean Glorfindel in the Fellowship of the Ring, not Githoniel.

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PostPosted: January 3rd, 2006, 8:50 pm 
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Uruk-hai are bred with orcs and men. They were mutated in the movie. orcs+men=uruk-hai

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