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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 2:30 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Yes thanks. I managed to read through some of what was said. Btw, do challenges between members like that keep being held?

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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 2:56 pm 
Gondorian
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Yes. They are debates set up at members request.


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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 2:57 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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wow cool, so we might request to debate this matter of shape-shifting balrogs then ;)

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PostPosted: July 30th, 2006, 3:04 pm 
Gondorian
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Yes you could. Simply find at least one person willing to oppose your view on your choice of subject and then request it to the moderator in charge. You can even have group debate where a few members can be on each team! You have to register first though of course...


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PostPosted: August 5th, 2006, 1:49 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Ok thanks Lord of all.

Re-reading 'The Silmarillion' for a second time I came upon this quote from the Chapter 'Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor'. This quote talks about Aerin, a Maia chosen by the Valar to guide the vessel of the sun, and it says:-

Quote:
being from the beginning a spirit of fire ... and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour.


Therefore, this clearly shows that Aerin, a Maia, had the capability of changing her form and she belonged to the spirit of fire.

Now weren't the balrogs maiar and creatures of fire? It could be a possibility therefore that they could also change shape. ;)

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Eärendil The Mariner

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PostPosted: August 5th, 2006, 5:05 pm 
Gondorian
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Many of the Ainur were able to take different shapes when descending into Ea and indeed after. The Istari are an example of this, who took the forms as of peoples of Middle-earth. Sauron indeed made new bodies when slain. In fact in the Third Age he managed to make himself a make-shift body even without the Ring.

Melkor lost this ability after the Darkening of Valinor and it appears that the Balrogs also lost this ability becuase a) We are never heard of them changing there shape and b) why did they not re-form new bodies after they were slain?

Both factors lead it to be unlikely (not impossible) that balrogs could change there shape.


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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 2:15 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Quote:
Sauron indeed made new bodies when slain. In fact in the Third Age he managed to make himself a make-shift body even without the Ring.


Thanks for your post Lord of all but I think that in this above quote you are contradicting yourself. Wasn't I just telling you, a few posts earlier (in this topic), that Saruon could shape-shifting (ex:Annatar)? But you didn't quite agree; so what happened now? ;) heh! :)

Quote:
why did they not re-form new bodies after they were slain?


Believe me, I have absolutely no idea. heh :). Still they were spirits. It seems quite strange that nothing is mentioned about balrogs after their death.

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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 2:31 pm 
Gondorian
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I am afraid you have misunderstood.

I said that Sauron could not shape-shift after the Fall of Numenor which I stick by. He lost that ability as Tolkien himself says - he was bound to the shape of the terrible Dark lord.

The only time Sauron could shape-shift truly is in the first Age (when Huan the hound had him by the throat).

We have no evidence than even romotely suggests that Balrogs coud change the shape of there bodies so I would give up.


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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 2:35 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Yes I know, but you've just said that in the
Quote:
... Third Age he managed to make himself a make-shift body even without the Ring.


?? Quite confusing don't u think?


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so I would give up.

Sry. I simply can't heh! :)

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Eärendil The Mariner

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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 2:44 pm 
Gondorian
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Sauron did make a body in the Third Age. So what? He was a spirit making a body. He did not already have a body and was trying to make another. Therefore its not shape-shifting...


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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 2:47 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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But there is still the element of changing bodies in the whole process.

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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 2:57 pm 
Gondorian
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Well no as he had his existing body destroyed and had to create a new one with the power of the Ring.

Shape shifting means = Body changed into another body

Sauron = spirit who made a body - NOT shape shifting.


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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 3:01 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Quote:
he managed to make himself a make-shift body even without the Ring.
...
Quote:
had to create a new one with the power of the Ring.


I guess you can figure out whats wrong there ...

Quote:
Shape shifting means = Body changed into another body

Sauron = spirit who made a body - NOT shape shifting.


Yes ok shape-shifting, true, it not like Sauron's case (ONLY after he was killed in the Last Alliance). But still he changes his body...

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PostPosted: August 6th, 2006, 3:29 pm 
Gondorian
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Firstly you have again misunderstood.

Firstly I said Sauron made himself a make-shift body even without the Ring in the Third Age.

Then later we were talking about Numenor and I said when Sauron fled back to Mordor after the fall of Numenor he made himself a body with the Ring. Two completely different times.


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PostPosted: August 7th, 2006, 3:59 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Ah ok thanks Lord of all for that clarification. :)

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PostPosted: August 7th, 2006, 5:18 pm 
Gondorian
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:notworthy:


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