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PostPosted: April 14th, 2007, 5:33 pm 
Dunadan
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The Encyclopedia of Arda says that Beorning was a Man but he was a 'skin-changer', one who could "take different forms at will" (full article). The Beornings were his descendants who retained that ability.

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PostPosted: April 20th, 2007, 11:39 am 
Vala
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Well, I had a topic in The Last Homely House about the Beornings in which Fíriel and I discussed them pretty well, or at least, we came to a conclusion for once, but we didn't really discussion Melian or Lúthien in that topic.

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PostPosted: April 28th, 2007, 9:09 am 
Vala
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http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14330 That's the topic, Aerlinn. :)

I don't recall Tolkien mentioning that Allatar and Pallando had taught anyone magic, merely that they had gone into the East to fulfill their mission, much as Radagast stayed in the North, Saruman wandered in the South, and Gandalf wandered all over, except for the East.

Tolkien also speculated that they succumbed to the lure of power in the same way that Saruman did, becoming rulers on their own.

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PostPosted: April 29th, 2007, 6:41 am 
Istari
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Mayeve it is possible that there is some maia blood in Beorn.Or maybe he, like tom Bombadil has some special connection with nature that allows him to change his form. Im just throwing ideas around, I dont think tolkien resolved this, as far as I know.

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PostPosted: April 29th, 2007, 7:48 am 
Vala
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Mephiston,Lord of Death wrote:
Mayeve it is possible that there is some maia blood in Beorn.


That's basically what Fíriel and I agreed on--he must be at least part-Ainur, to possess such abilities.

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PostPosted: May 4th, 2007, 3:15 pm 
Istari
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What about my other Idea, about him having some kind of connectioin with Nature in a similar way that Bombadil did?

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PostPosted: May 8th, 2007, 4:30 pm 
Istari
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Aerlinn wrote:
Quote:
Allatar and Pallando

*cough* I just said "Blue wizards" because I completely forgot their names and didn't feel like asking everything.
Lol Aerandir...of course you've got to remember it. You've just earned the nickname WTE (Walking Tolkien Encyclopaedia) since you always seem to know every little fact... :cool: :teehee:
But I'm pretty sure I read something about humans in the East being taught magic by wizards. I just can't remember which book it was...And since I don't have them here, thanks to my wonderful parents, who fail to understand what's so nice about Tolkien, I can't check it. :annoyed2:

Well...whatever...just going back to my original question...:P
Would that make the Beorn mortal/immortal?
I guess mortal, since his descendants were...but, did Beorn have a choice, like Elrond or Arwen? They were partly mortal too. Although, of course in a different way.
And about the other half-elves, apart from Elrond and his family...uh, you know those we discussed on the other thread? Did they have a choice? Or were Elrond & co. the only ones who actually chose to be mortal/immortal, Elf/Human...?
Like…the ancestors of th Price of Dol Amroth…since they were half Numenorean/Elvish…did they get to chose which race to belong with? Or didn't they? That would be kind of tragic. The Elvish parent would see the person they’re married with , and his/her children grow old and die…:(


Im pretty sure Beorn would die, as only a certain few among men had been given immortality and bliss with the Eldar. Also, with regards ot elrond and arwen, both were half elven, and their forbears, Earendil and Elwing, were pivitol figures in the history of middle earth. Beorn was important in his own right, but Eru gave death as a gift to Men, and I dont think he would have kept this " Gift " from beorn. However, Im sure our " encyclopedia" will find something to argue with here. IM waiting Aerandir......

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PostPosted: May 13th, 2007, 8:43 am 
Vala
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I'm here.

Now, it's my personal opinion that Beorn does have at least some Ainur/Eldar blood in him, which would at least partially explain his "powers" with nature, but he also died, which kind of rules out the idea that he was immortal.

So in the end, it's obvious that he wasn't any mere human, but neither was he immortal. He had to have had Ainur/Eldar blood in him to have the powers that he did, and I'm inclined to believe that it was the former rather than the latter. Of course, there is no real evidence to back this up, it's merely what I think is the most logical opinion to hold, from what I know about Beorn, Bombadil, and others.

Mephiston, I don't think that Beorn and Tom Bombadil should really be considered in the same class--Bombadil is far older. Bombadil is undoubtedly an Ainur, otherwise he simply could not have been around when Arda was formed. Beorn, however, couldn't have been a full Ainur, since he was mortal, and didn't display many powers beyond shapeshifting.

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PostPosted: May 13th, 2007, 9:20 am 
Vala
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Aerlinn wrote:
^ Our WTE is back! :P :welcome:

But no one anwsered my question. :closedeyes:
We agree that Beorn is at least partly Maia. And mortal. But did he/ his ancestors have a choice in being Maia/Human, since they were part both?

And the Half-Elves, like Imrahil's ancestors? Did they have a choice in being Elf/Human?
Or is that just Elrond & co. since their ancestors were important?

Sorry for irritating everyone with these questions... :P I'm just curious. :)


I would think so...I mean, it would be kind of odd, then. It would imply that the human genes (mortal) are dominant, etc. The discussion would kind of move to genetics, where it could possibly be explained, but then it would throw off the choices of Elrond, Elros, Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir.

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PostPosted: May 13th, 2007, 9:30 am 
Vala
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I'll think on it a bit, so then I can come back and give you a well thought-through answer. :)

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PostPosted: May 15th, 2007, 3:24 am 
Vala
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Okay--human genes could be dominant, but it wouldn't really seem that probable, since the Elves are the Elder Children. It'd make more sense for them to have the dominant genes.

Yes, all of those who had the choice are descended from Eärendil and Elwing, but I still think that the Elvish gene would be dominant. We never heard anything about Dior Aranel having a choice, despite the fact that he was the son of Beren and Lúthien. Since he doesn't seem to have been human, it can be assumed that he was elvish. Of course, then we have to wonder whether or not others would have had that choice, too. It certainly puts an interesting twist on the discussion.

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PostPosted: August 3rd, 2007, 10:06 pm 
Istari
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Aerlinn~Wilwarin wrote:
It sounds kind of logical when you put it that way. Certainly when you think of Imrahil - he was human, and the Elvish ancestor was many ages back. And yet it was easy to see he had an Elf somewhere, ages back, in the family. Even if he didn't have a choice - since his great-great-grandparent had made that for him ( if there was a choice at all) - it was still visible. That kind of suggests the Elvish genes are dominant. :-D

About the Dior thing... finally a solid argument. :) But still - he was an important person...at least Beren & Luthien were, and they were his parents. So though I’d like to…just be happy and say “See? They’re dominant! They didn’t have a choice!” but I’m still not sure… (sorry. I’m making it hard, I know. Eternally doubting your arguments :P )

And I agree it's more logical for the Elvish genes to be dominant because they are the Elder children.

But the Imrahil thing still makes me doubt it…his ancestor was half human/elf, and yet he is human. If the Elvish genes were always dominant, without a choice…how is it possible that Imrahil is human?


I would guess that as a half human/eldarin line prgressed, it would become less eldarin and more mortal. With regards to Imrahil, he may have had 1 ancestor who was eldarin, and 50 who were mortal, so it would be statistically more probable to me, that he would take on the characteristics of the 50 rather than the one. I think this may be a disputable point in tolkiens books, as I doubt that genetics was a common subject.Myself, I would say that Imrahil, from his mortal parents gained their characteristics, but gained maybe some longevity from his eldarin relations through some wierd thing. I suppose Numenor could be used as an example, but its a rather strange one.
anyways, Ill leave it at that.
The Lamenter

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PostPosted: October 10th, 2007, 8:05 am 
Vala
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Um, well, I think I have a new opinion on this. Kind of. At least, on how Imrahil could be mortal. I haven't taken the time to think of how it might affect my other opinions (I've got only a few minutes in which to post this).

Anyway, the way I see it, it's actually kind of simple. I am 1/32 Cherokee. My dad is 1/16 Cherokee. Likewise, my (grandfather, I think) is 1/8, and so on and so forth.

Now, that's just in like the last 200 years, but I think we'd all agree that I'm not Cherokee. So, if Imrahil had one Elvish ancestor some thousand years or more earlier (I don't remember when the elves of Lórien were fleeing), in the end, he would have only a fraction of elvish blood in his veins--however, sometimes, it seems as though genes take a weird step between child and parent, and the child actually resembles someone earlier along the lines--like when a child resembles their great-grandparent or something. I think that perhaps the same might have been the case with Imrahil, since it was very obvious to Legolas that he was of Elvish descent as well.

K, g2g. If I think of anything more later, I'll post it.

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