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Identy theft?
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Author:  Sinbearer [ June 16th, 2007, 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Identy theft?
I have long been taken with the depth of control The Ring had over Gollum. It seems that he even goes as far as to place his soul into The Ring and refers to himself in the plural as if he no longer existed. Just recently, in reading FotR, I saw something in light of this that made bells go off in my head. When Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring, at first she longs to take it but finally rejects it and decides to “remain Galadriel [herself].”

Remain Galadriel? Can the Ring destroy your identity? How?
Author:  goldelf [ June 16th, 2007, 11:44 pm ]
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yes i reckon it can take your 'identity'.Galadriel chose to 'remain Galadriel' because she knew if she took the ring it would change her.
and with Gollum/Smeagol it definately did just that,over time 'Smeagol' was replaced by 'Gollum'.
Author:  Ánië Súrion [ June 17th, 2007, 1:04 am ]
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Interesting, I never really thought about that. :blink:
Author:  Eä [ June 17th, 2007, 2:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think you are right about the Ring, it does gradually take over the bearer's personality. It's like a gnawing parasite that feeds from the thoughts and mind. As for Gollum's personality split I believe the Ring is manifesting itself by triggering his darker side. I'm not sure I understand it when you say the Ring makes Gollum refer to himself as if he didn't exist. I think the opposite happens. Gollum is very much aware about the struggles with his inner devils encouraged by the Ring and he is constantly fighting it to remain himself, Smeagol, but over the years he is lost when the Ring takes control of his mind. It reminds me of a person suffering from Alzheimers. His/her personality is slowly changed and broken down until he/she might not even be able to recognize own children, although for a long time there might still be short glimpses where the person seems like his/her old self, but they only get rarer and rarer. Smeagol's old self is still surfacing on rare occasions, like when Frodo shows him kindness and trusts him like he would trust anyone else.

I never linked Galadriel's words to the way the Ring works, but you might be right. I always understood it like Galadriel would remain herself, Galadriel of the Light, as opposed to giving into darkness and becoming the Dark Queen. But I also saw Galadriel as more than just a person. She is a Queen among her people, she has seen the Light of Valinor, she was among the exiled and she built her 'kingdom' and maintained it a safe haven as the keeper of a Ring of Power. She isn't just a regular elf, she represents so many important things in the history of Middle-earth, wisdom among other things, so she is a symbol of light.
Author:  Iritarimel Noramírë [ June 17th, 2007, 4:24 pm ]
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I don't know if I would have phrased it "identity thelft", but I think I agree. The ring is so linked to Sauron that it is like an evil being in itself, and an evil being with persuasive powers. People who carry the ring feel very possessive of it and it turns them from good to at least not hindering the bad side, if not helping.

~Iri
Author:  *Telcontar* [ June 17th, 2007, 6:30 pm ]
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I understod Galadriel's words like: She will remain only Galadriel, but Ea has esplaned it wery good! :)
Author:  Miriel [ June 19th, 2007, 11:10 am ]
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From her words I always guessed she meant she would remain Galadriel as everyone knew her then, and not a new dark lord (or lady) beautiful and terrible as the dawn etc. Because that was what the ring would do to her.
Author:  Sinbearer [ June 20th, 2007, 1:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Eä wrote:
...I'm not sure I understand it when you say the Ring makes Gollum refer to himself as if he didn't exist....

When I got to thinking about it, I don't think I saw it like I see it now that you have stimulated my thought. I appreciate those thoughtful comments Eä and I agree with what you are getting at. Nothing like making me think! I’m still trying to sort it out.

Initially I was thinking that a person’s identity was something that was lost in the end but after thinking about what you said, I think I was wrong. It makes more sense that it is something we lose up front or along the way and how we end up is the result of that. How would we lose it? I think through choosing to dwell on the wrong thing. By beholding we becomes changed and if we let our mind focus on the wrong things we can lose hold on who we are and what we were meant to be. I guess to be more clear, what we are really losing here is the identity that would fulfill us.

Personal awareness (or who they see themselves as) has a dynamic effect on where each character in LotR ends up. Which is much like what happened to the eagle that was raised with the barnyard chickens and consequently could only act like a chicken. So the only way we make good choices and fulfill our destiny is to get a clear picture of who we are. Or, said another way, the only way to make the choice to be moral is through the awareness of one’s being ( which I think involves the purpose of Illuvitar for him/her).

I think it is pretty clear that most of the characters in LotR that persisted in making the wrong choices lost their souls into the Ring and consequently did not fulfill their destiny. Having taken up an illicit identity, the creature that they should have been “ceased to exist”. Gandalf speaks to this when he says, “Yes, I am in white now. Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.” That Saruman ceased to exist and was lost to the Ring.

That is a tragic thing and it is no wonder Gollum struggled with it and was so confused in his speech.
Author:  Eä [ June 21st, 2007, 3:23 pm ]
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Sinbearer wrote:
I guess to be more clear, what we are really losing here is the identity that would fulfill us.
....

Or, said another way, the only way to make the choice to be moral is through the awareness of one’s being ( which I think involves the purpose of Illuvitar for him/her).

Thank you, Sinbearer. This is a philosophy I have never thought of before, but it makes a lot of sense. You are touching on something very essential to human beings... and in being in general. I find it very closely linked with happiness and following a path in life. The way I understand it is that Gollum strayed from the path that would have brought him moral satisfaction - the good life so to say.
This is really interesting and something I think I could apply to my everyday life, although that'd be a different stroy, but thank you for bringing it up :-)

The point about right or wrong choices reminds of my long lost topic on Good and evil in Middle-earth.. perhaps I should try to revive it.. *ponders*
Anyway, I found it interesting that Gandalf said he was 'Saruman' and the 'White Wizard' in Fangorn Forest. As if it was a title and not just a name. Again it is like Galadriel refers to herself in third person, as if she was distanced from herself.

Then I was thinking about the others who bear the Ring or are affected by the Ring, Bilbo for instance. How does the Ring influence him?
Author:  Taurquende [ June 28th, 2007, 2:38 am ]
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I admit, those were long posts, and I'm afraid I don't have the time right now to go through them all... :confused:

Right now I will say that I suppose that makes sense, but I think the personality just kind of goes with the corruption. I also thought that when Galadriel said she would remain Galadriel, I thought that she was literally saying "And remain the Lady of Light..." rather than a "Lady of Darkness."
Author:  mephiston, lord of death [ August 3rd, 2007, 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Identy theft?
Sinbearer wrote:
I have long been taken with the depth of control The Ring had over Gollum. It seems that he even goes as far as to place his soul into The Ring and refers to himself in the plural as if he no longer existed. Just recently, in reading FotR, I saw something in light of this that made bells go off in my head. When Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring, at first she longs to take it but finally rejects it and decides to “remain Galadriel [herself].”

Remain Galadriel? Can the Ring destroy your identity? How?


There was a really interesting analogy that Andy Serkis used on the ROTK video game interview, in that he called Gollum/smeagol a "Ring Junkie."
I think The Ring requires that you accept it and its use, then it works on your personailty. For example, Gollum gave in, and the ring turned him from smeagol to gollum, like a before and after. Some were strong enough to resist it like galdrielYou see, in Galadriel, you saw a queen, dark and terrible when she was offered it by Frodo. That shows that the Ring doesnt seem to "create" the "evil",rather it works on the aspect of that persons character that is "evil" until it outweighs th egood part.IM not sure if IM making sense here, but I know what I meant. PM me if you want anything cleared up, or Ill post again.
The Lamenter
Author:  Larael [ August 25th, 2007, 11:42 pm ]
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What an interesting idea, Sinbearer! We have always known that the Ring is controlling. How else could Gollum have ended up the way he is? However, the idea of pouring ones soul into the object is an idea that is not new to me.

Take JK Rowlings Harry Potter series for instance. The locket in Deathly Hallows has a mind of it's own just as the Ring does. It lives on the trio [and predominantly Ron's] fears and doubts. It weighs the bearer down.

In Chamber of Secrets, Ginny Weasley pours out her soul to the diary, and it pours a little bit of itself back into her. Sound familiar? This is exactly what I think is going on with the Ring.

While it may make you forget your name and your very being, it also takes control from the inside until it has turned you into a completely different person on the outside.
Author:  Aerandir [ August 26th, 2007, 8:14 am ]
Post subject: 
You know, I keep finding these threads too late. :annoyed2: By the time I get here, at least one other person (in this case, two) has said every last thing I was going to say. Well spoken, Eä, Sinbearer, and Larael.
Author:  Eä [ August 27th, 2007, 8:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Thank you Aerandir, do feel free to add your comments nevertheless. :-)

Larael, I think the interesting about the Ring and the horcruxes in the Harry Potter series is that the objects feed off the bearer. That's where it gets the strength, depending on the person's character and power, so it grows by enlarging certain traits in the person's personality. The object itself is nothing.
Author:  Aerandir [ August 27th, 2007, 1:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, the Ring is still something--it contains in itself a considerable amount of power, which simply has to be mastered. It still feeds off of and magnifies certain character traits, but it has a lot of its own power.


And you're welcome, Eä. :)
Author:  Frodos-Guide [ September 4th, 2007, 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  ...
Well - The ring corrupts people. I don't personally believe that it so much 'steals identities' - but it does corrupt.
The Corruption seemingly takes away the morals or a person and destroys who they are - so I guess that to a degree it wipes out their former selves. It has a will of it's own - and being so powerful - It can bend people and manipulate people into carrying out it's will - and the will of Sauron.

Where you refer to the example of Galadriel stating 'I will remain Galadriel' - she resisted the urge to take and use the ring and therefore she remained true to herself and her people - she did not succumb to the will of the ring or the dark lord.

Looking a little futher, think about Gandalf stating 'Understand, Frodo, that I would use this ring to do good, but through me, it will wield a power to great and terrible to imagine.' That sums it up in a quote.
(:
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