It's okay, Elanor. We're quite a slow-moving club as it is...

Okay, I can see why Dumbledore chose Snape to search for Harry and Ron, however logically speaking, wouldn't it have made more sense to send McGonagall in the first place? She is, after all, their Head of House, and deputy Headmistress of Hogwarts. It seems like it would be more of her "place" to do something like that.

It seems I've been a bit confusing in my suggestion of the use of telepathy. It was more of a spur of the moment thought that had no canon basis really. Is it even possible to be telepathic in the magical world? I don't think JKR ever mentioned anything about it. But, what made me think of it in relation to Snape was the fact that he is a very good Occlumens, and whilst that doesn't exactly enable you to send exactly worded thoughts to another person, you are able to show them things that they may not otherwise see. Just a bit of innocent musing on my part.

Elanor, you are quite right about that particular quote. I've never listened to the audio book recording [though I've heard it's Stephen Fry is quite good!], but I can vouch for the movie and say that they completely left out everything Snape suggests after this particular quote, and the way it was said seems to be as more of a "challenge" to Dumbledore on Snape's part. I think it may cause some to question his loyalty more when hearing the movie quote. Otherwise, if you do read the correct quotation from the book I think it could be read different ways - sarcasm being one of them.

Gah! I can't remember if this quote was in the movie or not. For some reason I can remember Richard Harris saying it, but I don't remember it being in the scene. Anyway, despite whether it was or not, I definitely think it's sort of a jab at Snape. In a way, he's reminding Snape that he's not quite so innocent himself at this point, and even that the trust Dumbledore has bestowed on him, is something that can be taken away just as quickly.

And, I'm so glad Eä brought up power. It's such a central theme of this series. Looking at Snape in the series as a whole, how would you rank him on a power scale? He certainly isn't up with Voldemort or maybe even Dumbledore, however, I think he could possibly be on his own level slightly above the average witch or wizard. What do you think?

Oh you should definitly listening to the audio books, they're awesome Me and my sister have all 7 of them and have listened to them numerous times...

I think at the time that Snape was looking for Harry and Ron, McGonagall was doing the school sorting ceremony. I wonder why he didn't send Hagrid though, it does sound like a game keeper type jop cause Hagrid would know the grounds a lot better than Snape etc.

As for power I think Snape's quite powerfull in his own way. We know that his occlumency is stronger than Voldey's - "the most powerfull legilimence that ever lived". And I imagine that he must have not just been able to have kept back his real thoughts from Voldey but to have also fed him false ones. I doubt Volde would have taken him back just on trust like Dumbledore would have. So that suggests he's really powerfull in this area.

As for general magical power I'd agree he's probably pretty powerfull. It's a shame we never really see him fighting for his true side and so see his true power. He always has to pretend he's on the death eaters side so do just enough fighting to satisfy that.

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I agree with Elanor that Hagrid might as well have been sent to look after Harry and Ron. Dumbledore did send Hagrid for Harry before when he lived with the Dursley family, so he might have done it again. I think McConagall (or Hagrid) might have been sent if any other student than Harry had been missing. However, as I mentioned before, it seems reasonable to have Snape look for them as Snape is a member of the Order and very trusted by Dumbledore. It could also be that Snape specifically asked to do the job so he could enjoy the humiliation of Harry. For yes, he probably knew that Dumbledore wouldn't expell him, but I think Snape might have been carried away and hoped for a more severe punishment of Harry. Also he might have liked to toy with Harry's mind and threaten him with expulsion as a part of the constant bullying he excersises.

I see Snape as a geek, the kind of person who devotes himself truly to the arts and learns everything there is to learn on the subject until he masters it.

A list of Snape's skills from The Halfblood Prince:
http://www.half-bloodprince.org/snape_skills.php
And The Harry Potter Wiki site:
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Sever ... and_Skills

You might have seen the lists before, I'm just linking for reference.
It is implied in the book that Snape was one of the most trusted by both Dumbledore and Voldemort, two of the most powerful wizards of the time. I think he had a certain insight in many things and were able to see clearer than many, partly thanks to his Occlumency skills, and the key to power is wisdom. Dumbledore had his Pensieve(sp?) and Voldemore his spies but Snape could only depend on himself to gather his knowledge. For the reasons already mentioned by you two I think it's safe to say that he was powerful in magic. But he also had the intelligence to know how to play his cards, he was a strategist, proved by the way he performed as a double-agent.
What he lacked, however, was the charisma possessed by Dumbledore and Voldemort. Snape would never become the great leader, because his appearance and character didn't invite people to gather around him.

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So, I think we've come to the conclusion that Dumbledore could have sent someone else to search for Harry and Ron. Whether it would have been McGonagall or Hagrid, we can't know for sure, all we know is that he did send Snape. One last suggestion - Do you think JKR could've just used this point as a chance to reintroduce Snape and keep him in the readers mind?

Oo, I'm really glad you posted those two links, Eä! I've never seen either of those, and it really summarised the extent of Snape's power very well. From what they two of you have said, I think we could almost label Snape as "street smart" and "book smart". He knows his stuff really well, and thinking about it, I'd have really liked to see him do some fantastic spell work or dueling at least once in the series. Or maybe a bit of his DE work.

Street smart and book smart.. yeah, can say that!
You're welcome, The Halfblood Prince has a lot of interesting information about Snape.

How do you imagine Snape was as a Deatheater?
Do you think he found a 'home' among Voldemort's followers where his skills and nature were more appreciated?
Which side do you think Snape felt more familiar and relaxed with? Voldemort's or Dumbledore's?

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For some reason I really don't want to imagine Snape killing or hurting other people, although I know that's certainly what he did as part of Voldemort's regime. I can imagine him as a young man really wanting to be a part of that elite group, glorifying Voldemort's actions. However, I think after the death of Lily reality really hit him full on. He realised what being a Deatheater really meant. It's one of those situations where you're a part of something everyone says is bad, but you can't see how until someone close to you is effected in a negative way.



Hmm... I think it depends on what time in Snape's life it was. Before Lily's death I think he felt like being a Deatheater was his "calling". He felt like there were people equal to him mentally and perhaps physically as well. They all had a common goal and a common leader to rally around.

After Snape joins the Order of the Phoenix I still don't think he felt as though he fit in. Many people suspected him of still being one of Voldemort's right hand men, and his temperment did nothing to dissuade them otherwise. It was a precarious situation for him.

For some reason I never thought of Snape as a Deatheater, because it's not very elaborated in the books. Yes, he might have hurt and even killed people, but he can't have been openly cruel.. otherwise he probably wouldn't have been accepted as a professor at Hogwarts. I think he acted in the shadows like he did all his life.
I think you're right that it was the Lily-incident that converted Snape, however, I have a feeling that Snape didn't care much about which side he was on. If love really was such a crucial factor and drive behind everything in his life after the death of Lily, the only thing that would be on his mind was some kind of 'justice' or revenge - and as it turned out, seeking refuge with Dumbledore proved the best solution.
I think Snape might have had more 'friends' and people who shared his own world view and values among the Deatheaters, than on the 'good' side. But the way I see him, Snape is a survivor and actually more than that. He keeps his own agenda hidden and plays his card according to his own rules. But as one here suggested (I believe it was you, Larael) Snape might really have enjoyed the double-agent-game, the danger and living the unsafe life as a spy.

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But, doesn't it make sense for him to be a Deatheater? He was socially awkward all this life and drawn to the Dark Arts from an early age. He had few friends at Hogwarts besides those who were in Voldy's growing circle of supporters, and I think, especially after he broke his relationship with Lily, it made sense for him to follow those who shared his same passions.

And about being openly cruel - We did see him, in a quick memory scene from OotP, killing flies in his bedroom as a child. I think this shows that he is definitely not afraid of killing people. And really, when you're a part of group such as the Deatheaters I think it's impossible not to learn to be cruel.

As for Dumbledore not hiring him because he could have been openly cruel, I think we have to remember that he only hired Snape because he gave himself up to protecting Harry, and he had real remorse for basically selling Lily and James to Voldemort. I think that meant more to Dumbledore than anything else, and he was able to turn a blind eye to anything else that Snape had previously done.

Did I say that? I dunno if I quite agree with it now, but I can certainly see where I came up with that. And I definitely agree with you, Eä. Snape definitely had more "friends" or at least companionship amongst the Deatheaters than with anyone under Dumbledore. It was just too precarious a situation for Snape to ever really feel comfortable amongst the Order.

Yes, it definitely makes sense for him to be a Deatheater, because he agrees with the same values as Voldemort and his reign. And in addition to what you said, Snape praised full-blooded wizards and tried to hide the fact that he was only half-blood. Snape sought perfection and had a keen interest in the Dark Arts, So I agree that he fit in as a Deatheater.

Killing flies isn't being cruel - I do it too!
I don't doubt one second that Snape has killed more than flies and that he doesn't regret his actions because he did it for a 'greater cause'. however, I imagine that he was more subtle, taking on the part of the under-cover agent moving in the shadows, so he could never be directly accused for killings etc. Let me explain, I don't think he would be allowed to teach at Hogwarts if he was commonly known as a murderer, not even Dumbledore could could allow this. Dumbledore on his part trusted him because he knew of his love for Lily - I'm still completely with you on that!

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WOOt! We agree!

Haha, yeah, okay, I kind of see the slight absurdity of that statement. I guess you can't really compare flies to people, although killing is killing no matter what it is. Of course, I too kill flies in my house, but that doesn't mean I'm capable of going out and killing another human.

Lol. I have no idea where I was trying to go with that statement, Eä. Looks like you got me on that one. However, I don't think we've ever taken into account the fact that Dumbledore may not have ever known everything that Snape got up to as part of the Deatheaters. I can imagine Snape concealing acts of cruelty or even murder/torture that he may now be ashamed of.

By the way, not to put a damper on this good discussion, but I'll have the last discussion stuff for CoS and a bit from PoA up later today or on Tuesday.

Perhaps we just figured out that we, too, are cruel... since we are capable of killing... (okay, I admit, I don't kill flies... only mosquitoes.. and even that I despise because they make such a mess on the wall!!).

Again I agree with you, Snape's opinions on right or wrong, good and bad might not be the average wizard's, so I'm sure he doesn't regret things he did as a Deatheater, but rather saw them as necessary actions on people who we perhaps even deserved it... their only wrongdoing being weakness... or their opposition to the Dark Lord.

Please go ahead and bring up the next topic of discussion. As you can see I'm rather repeating myself with just slightly different words, so we need a new topic.
However, I will be gone for the rest of Easter week but I hope the others will be able to post to the discussion meanwhile.

Happy Easter.

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Lol. Look at us admitting to killing insects. It's only human nature I guess. It's not like we go looking to kill them. Sometimes I just get a bit annoyed if they've been flying about the room too long for my liking.

Right-o then. I'll get that up, and I'll see you after Easter then. I've got a few days off myself and we'll be visiting family, so see you then. Until then, maybe I can get a few more people back into the club. It seems we've become a club of 2 now.

New discussions! Sorry for the double post.

Chamber of Secrets - Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets

Summary: Ron and Harry have just overheard the teachers saying that Ginny has been taken into the Chamber of Secrets.



Why on earth would Snape suggest such a stupid idea - it's way out of character for him to joke around like that. Sure, he wants to get rid of Lockhart, but even after Lockhart leaves he doesn't even have a real plan to suggest. There isn't much to discuss here, except the fact that I would've thought Snape to be a bit more prepared.

New discussions! Sorry for the double post.

Chamber of Secrets - Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets

Summary: Ron and Harry have just overheard the teachers saying that Ginny has been taken into the Chamber of Secrets.



Why on earth would Snape suggest such a stupid idea - it's way out of character for him to joke around like that. Sure, he wants to get rid of Lockhart, but even after Lockhart leaves he doesn't even have a real plan to suggest. There isn't much to discuss here, except the fact that I would've thought Snape to be a bit more prepared.

*revives the club of two*
Sorry, it took me so long but I haven't been around much lately.

Who is the man Snape is referring to? Is it Lockhart? My apologies again but I haven't read the books for years... hmm.. which would seems like it would disqualify me from discussing further in this club... I hope you can bear with me...

To me it seems like Snape is being dripping sarcastic again, and he hates Lockhart for all we know, his boasting attitude although he has next to no real talent. I think Snape is half challenging Lockhart to save Ginny, knowing that Lockhart doesn't have a chance. If Lockhart declines his fraud will be discovered, if he accepts he might suffer humiliation or even worse in the Chamber of Secrets, so for Snape it seems to be a win-win situation.

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*bumps*

I don't think Snape thought that there was any way that Lockhart would possibly go to rescue Ginny. So it was just to get him out the way and possibly as revenge for all his boasting in the last year.

However I do agree that it seems wierd that Snape and the other teachers don't do more to try and rescue Ginny. All they start talking about is evacuating the school etc. They just take it for granted that she really is dead and nothing can be done about it. There's no discussion of at least a search to recover the body.

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