Welcome back Inwe - we missed you!

Welcome Vána, good to see you, it's been a while since I saw you on A-U.


I don't have much to add to Larael's or Nurr's posts... or well, I could, but I'm afraid it would be simply be re-wording their points or even my own, but it was really interesting to discuss it with you all. I never understood what Dumbledore meant with the comment regarding Snape's soul, when Snape was afraid his would be maimed when killing Dumbledore, even though he asked him to do it. But I guess this is because I don't know enough about the whole soul-concept and how Rowling meant it to work.

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It is a rather confusing subject, and I only wish she had delved into it further. Will we ever know if Snape's soul was maimed or not? I'm not sure.

If there aren't any more points to make on this topic I think we'll get back to some chapter discussions. I think we're on to GoF by now.

Perhaps we will never know.. and perhaps it's more fun this way.

I'm ready to open up for GoF!

I love your new Snape-set. And happy birthday, dear.

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Thanks, Eä. JF slaved over that set for quite some time I'm told, and I love her all the more for doing so. Thanks for the birthday wishes, as well. I'll have some good GoF discussion up when I get home from school today.

Sorry for the double post...

This first discussion will focus on a few key points from Goblet of Fire. They will not all be directly related to Snape, but may apply to him in some fashion. Afterward, before we begin OotP, I'd like to take some to discuss two matters I don't think we've covered in this thread before: pre-DH Snape vs. post-DH Snape [how fans view him now that all has been revealed], and Fanon Snape vs. Canon Snape [a look at how the fandom has come to differentiate between the two].

Let's start with the first half of my planned GoF discussion. Feel free to ask questions of your own as we go along as usual.

Goblet of Fire: The Yule Ball



- How does the Dark Mark work? Or, what sort of magic is it?
- At this point do we believe Snape thinks Voldemort is coming back as well? How do we think Snape will feel about Voldemort's return?

Goblet of Fire: The Egg and the Eye



- Though Moody could literally be talking about Snape's Dark Mark, what else could he be refering to in this passage?
- Another question to ponder: Is remorse enough to redeem a man for acts such as betrayel, murder, and torture? [All of which we must admit Snape has, or may have, done in his life.]

I'm not sure if these questions will turn into a huge discussion like last time, and if they don't, that's okay. I have 2 larger sections of GoF set aside to talk about next, and I didn't want to group them with these smaller issues just yet.

-Well, the Dark Mark is Voldemort's personal telephone, so to speak. He touches it, and it burns all the others to know to come back. It's got to have some sort of affinity to Voldemort. In a way, I kind of think of it like the Ring. As Voldemort gets stronger, so does the Mark. It's dark magic, so it may have some essence of Voldemort in it.

- I'm pretty sure Snape was not one of the people who believed Voldemort was gone forever. He doesn't strike me as that optimistic of a person. So I think him seeing the Mark growing stronger, he would believe that Voldemort could be coming back. As for how he feels....Not quite sure. I think he believes that he will be safe. After all, Voldemort thought Snape was his man until the end. He only killed him for power over the Elder Wand. So I don't think Snape was very worried. However, I'm sure he was a bit apprehensive as to what might happen if Voldemort came back fully. Such as, people dying, choosing sides, etc. And how to keep Lily's son safe, but (as much as I feel like I'm betraying my ship by saying it) I don't think that would be a concern too much.



- I'm pretty sure that the Mark is the only thing he is referring to. We have to remember that it's really Crouch Jr. in Moody's body. As far as I know, Crouch wouldn't know much about Snape's history. So I would guess that's it's simply a dig at Snape's previous loyalties.

- Hm. My full answer would include repentance and belief in Christ, but as that would be straying into banned territory...
I would say that in JK's world it does. We know that people can feel remorse, can want to change, and do look for ways to be redeemed. And we know remorse is the only way to keep a soul from being split after a murder. Now, the real question comes in as to if Snape really truly feels remorse over the things he's done.

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going on a journey through my old claims

I admit, the Dark Mark question was more of a personal question I needed answered than anything else. I loved the connection you made between it and the Ring. Just as the Ring is connected to Sauron, the Mark is connected to Voldemort.

Again, I agree with you, though I didn't necessarily think that way to begin with. For a while I was completely convinced that Snape didn't believe [or rather, didn't want to believe] that Voldemort could come back. He wasn't doing anything about it, and all of Voldy's other followers were in Azkaban, so who could bring Voldemort back? I think Snape knew he would rise to power eventually, just not by the hands of Peter Pettigrew. I'm not sure how Snape feels about it all to be honest. On one side I can see him gritting his teeth and preparing himself to just go at it, but again I can see him becoming apprehensive and unsure because of his past.

Good work reading between the lines on that one, Nurr. I was all ready for some sort of amazing revelation. Ah well...

Ah yes, religious beliefs would play a big part in how people respond to such a question. Considering religion isn't exactly prevalent in JKR's books [in that her characters do not believe in a higher power that we know of] I think it'd be safer to leave such things out of it.

Getting down to it, the fact is, does feeling sorry for what you've done really change anything. When you change other people's lives in such a way how can saying sorry or feeling sorry make things better? I don't think we can say whether Snape felt remorse for everything he did. I'd like to think he did feel remorse for his past actions, especially for betraying Lily.

I'm sorry for my long absence from the thread. I really haven't much to add, if anything at all. I agree with Nurr and everything in her post - yeah, I can be that easy!!

As for redemption... I'm not sure it would be that important to Snape. We touched on it in the earlier discussion about whether Snape's soul would be maimed by killing Dumbledore. Nurr might be right that it leads into a discussion on the beliefs in Rowlings books. As far as I know, Rowling never mentions any specific religious under/overtones. If the characters don't believe in any kind of afterlife it doesn't make sense for Snape to fear for his soul except for in his living life.

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But, I think, based on what we see in the chapter King's Cross in DH, that the characters do believe in some sort of afterlife. Not necessarily one that comes from a certain religion, but I think they do believe in one nonetheless.

Before I post some <s>more interesting</s> more discussion topics I was wondering if anyone has taken a look at the last two HBP trailers to be released.

The second one, as we've discussed in the HBP movie thread has barely a second of Snape in it and not much can be discussed. However, there is a particular scene in the third one [released yesterday] that shows Snape casting a spell. Do any of you think that could be from the scene where Snape kills Dumbledore? It's hard to tell from the way it was shot...

That's true.. but still.. Did Rowling mention anything about any beliefs in the Wizard community? Perhaps it was strategic from her side that she chose not to touch on it and to leave it to each reader... to figure out the King's Cross chapter?

I'm not sure about the scene with Snape. I mean you are the master in interpreting the trailers!
In fact I believe it could be just any spell, it might not necessarily be taken from an important scene, or I mean all the scenes are fairly important to the plot, but I mean it doesn't have to be the Big Scene where Snape kills Dumbledore... ehh.. does it?

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Aye, I definitely think she left it open-ended. We know from Luna's words at the end of OotP that some do believe in some sort of afterlife, but what it is and whether we choose to believe that they believe is something she left up to the individual reader.

No, indeed it doesn't. I just couldn't help squeeing when I saw it though. When you watch in slow motion [as I have done on numerous occasions now] it only looks like it could be THE scene. But maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions. I just can't wait to see that bloody movie!

Hahahah, no I haven't watched it in slow motion... I don't even think I can do that on my computer!!
True, it might be the scene and it probably is... I was just thinking along with evil trailer-editting people who would just pick a nice spell-casting Snape and don't care too much from which scene as long as they caught Snape from a good angle or something... but then again it doesn't make much sense to not have the same coherence in the trailer as in the movie.... Umm.. but you know sometimes when you see trailers from comedies and you see THE three funny lines and afterwards you realise they were taken completely out of context and just put together to be.. funny! Eh...
Aww I'm getting so excited for the movie too... but it's no good since there's more than half a year's wait... still....

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All you have to do is pause it and manually move the little time stamp with your mouse. I understand exactly what you mean, and I hope that isn't what they've done. That'd be an awful teaser.

So.. I know we've been on break for a while, and I do have some good hardcore GoF discussion for us now. Hopefully this will provide for a bit more thinking and... discussion.

First something that relates directly to GoF -



- From the information given, can we deduce if Voldemort ever speaks of Snape in this speech? [There have been several theories floating around certain HP forums I've frequented as to who Snape could be.]

And now something less connected to GoF - Pre-DH/Post-DH Snape

How do you view Snape? Do you split him into the two categories mentioned above? How has Snape changed for you since the release of DH, and which side of him do you prefer?

Imagine! By this time (almost) HBP would have been out... if only...

Oh, Lar-y, how dare you show up here with a Lucius-banner?
Nah, it's okay... we know where your alliances and loyalty lie.. deep down! Where's your avatar, by the way?

Thanks for adding new questions to the discussion. I'll be back here later to join in. For now I'd just wanted to let you all know I'm on.

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And now to the discussion, though I may not be able to add much to it.

If Voldemort speaks of Snape in that speech, I would assume that he falls under the last description. I wouldn't have thought so when I read it the the first time, but with the knowledge we have about Snape now. We know Snape was able to hide his true alliances and feelings for most people, including even Voldemort. I believe Voldemort always counted Snape among his most faithful Death Eaters, otherwise he wouldn't have trusted him like he did. But I'm curious to what the other theories say.

Like I already mentioned several times, I see Snape in two ways now. There is good, 'redeemed' Snape that we learn about in DH and there is mysterious, slightly villainous Snape from book 1-6. And of course I find his complex character so very fascinating with the twist Rowling gave him in the end, but I have to say, I prefer Snape from book 1-6. He is the unpredictable character.. he does so many contradictory things; like apparently he hates Harry and still he helps him... or does he really! And parts of it also have to do with a ... slight.. just a slight.. dislike for Harry, ahem... but let's not go there!

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I shall post more tomorrow, but I'm just here to wish Snape a happy [belated] birthday!!