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Ringer for Christ

Which is a good point.

People should be free to believe what they want to believe without having one single point of view pressured on them constantly.

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Yeah, I agree with what you guys are saying. I also think everybody should be free to believe what they want without getting their beliefs sneered at. I believe that's somewhat what the movie was about? Scientists and the like who believe in Intelligent Design and who have been ridiculed for their beliefs. The point of having a free, democratic society (in my mind) is that if I want to go believe that my teddy bear is the new deity of the world, I should be able to worship it I mean, not literally, but you see my point.

I'll say right now that I support Intelligent Design 100%. I'm not an idiot. I've done my research. It's a very valid point of view, and I'm glad that someone's had the courage to put it out there in the open. Good on you, Ben Stein

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Good point.

I actually think the whole idea of making the movie in a "nuteral" position was probably the best thing to do.

It simply states the evidence, says these are the facts, and you should be able to belive what you want. (From what I hear. have not got a chance to see it yet unfortunately)


OOC (Gota add this... I love the poem in your signiture Meldawen. it's very lovely)

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I would say thanks, but its not by me It's from the song Homeless Heart by Amanda Stott, and yeah, I like it too.

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Hm.. never even heard of her. (but I don't get out much) Pretty lyrics for a song.

*coughs* Well.. back on subject now. sorry. *grinns innocently*

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I'm sorry but no one's pressuring them to accept evolution. They just teach like they teach it. If you decide to say the Sun revolves around the Earth, fine, go ahead. No one's forcing you to believe the heliocentric theory. EXCEPT, there is no proof for the geocentric theory and everything that points to the heliocentric theory. We're talking about teaching this to children and teenagers, who deserve to know the truth. Science is man's way of discovering the world and the truth. While it is not perfect and can be used for the worst, it certainly should not expanded to include theories that have not been proven. For all I care, you can say intelligent design happened. But for Gaia's sakes, don't teach it to children. To teach intelligent design in classrooms is like teaching alchemy or astrology or phrenology. No one really is sneering at people who believe it. They just want to see evidence and peer-review papers and the like, which has not come up.

The movie is definitely not in a neutral position. For reasons for that, PM me.

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I was cured all right.

...well, I could have quite a lot to say, but as it's not worth debating because a) we're not supposed to and b) I won't be changing my position no matter what you toss at me, nor (I assume) will you be changing yours, I'll save it for a place where it's worth it.

So anyone have any observations about things they would have liked differently, or points they hadn't seen brought up before?

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Ringer for Christ

Hmm, funny that.
I think they should have interviewed some of the religious scientists like Kenneth Miller or Francis Collins. As much as I admire Richard Dawkins, he isn't the sole representative of science. From what I heard, they had a bad anti-atheist propaganda mixed into it (atheists are boogeymen..whooo). Ben should have definitely sticked with the facts.

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I was cured all right.

I saw this movie on Monday afternoon with my Biology class, but I just now had time to review it. First and foremost, let me say that I really enjoyed it. It was a well-made film, and many valid points were made. It was certainly no worse than Michael Moore's documentaries, which received widespread acclaim and made millions of dollars from the public. It was not neutral, but neither was it intended to be. A film without a bias would be a very boring film indeed.

However, I do feel that some things could have been done differently. Directly connecting Darwinism and Hitler's atrocities, for example, was going a bit too far. I understand the point that they were trying to make (Social Darwinism, though a perversion of Darwin's original theory, did at least stem from the same basic principles), but I think that they cost themselves credibility. It made the film look more like propaganda and less like a documentary, even though a majority of the material was factual. That, along with a few other minor things, are going to hurt it quite a bit.

That said, though, I really do think that everyone - whether they believe a single word of it or not - should see this film. To quote John Stuart Mill, "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." To judge this film off of hearsay alone is really doing it a disservice. One of my friends loved the whole thing and had absolutely no complaints. Another thought it was boring and a waste of time. It is the duty of every individual to determine his or her own opinion on a matter based on personal experience, rather than relying on what others have said. Go into it with an open mind, and even if you disagree with every single point made, at least you'll know precisely what you disagree with.


Stein specifically stated in the film that his purpose was not to prove Intelligent Design, nor disprove Evolution. His primary goal (according to him) is simply to make people aware of the problem. Scientists are being fired for doing research and getting results that make them question the status quo. Even if they are completely off, the very nature of science is asking questions and following the results to wherever they may lead. Whether those questions are in keeping with the presently accepted theory or not, they have the right to be asked. That is the point of Expelled, not Intelligent Design vs. Evolution.


(On a more personal note, if anyone is interested in discussing the specific details of this film, I'd be more than happy to via either PM or MSN. I happen to have been interested in this subject for several years now, and I'd love to hear others' opinions.)

That is exactly how I feel! Well said, potr!

I haven't actually seen this movie (yet) myself, but I would really like to. I first heard about it when one of my friends mentioned it to me because I was telling her about the book I'm reading - Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel. Which, for anyone who is interested, is all hard, scientific facts from the experts that lead to Intelligent Design - the author is a Christian now, but at the time he did all of the research for the book, he was an atheist.

But I think I'll stop now because I don't know how far is too far

I'll check back when I actually see the movie!

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Good points, and yes the position taken is not entirely nutral but it isn't telling anyone to belive one thing or another, it simply presents the facts so we can all make up our own minds.

And I allso agree that anyone should go see it, that way (as was said) you know what you believe OR what you dissagree with.

As far as linking evolution to Hitlers stuff and all it's really quite a proven fact.

Hitler himself wrote and said on manny ocasions that why he was doing what he was doing is because evolution had produced a superior race (the Arian race so he said) and that he was "doing the world a favor" by eliminating the inferiors.

Not saying that every evolutionist is a racist, far from it, however, the evolution thinking patern can lead some people down that road. (as evident by hitlers statements and actions)

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That may be a fact, yes, but I think that what potr was saying is that even though it's true, including that kind of thing in an already controversial documentary may have given it more of a flavour of propaganda than was really good for it. To mention Hitler and the Nazis can come across a bit extremist, especially since (I think) the majority of evolutionists today think nothing of the sort. But I haven't seen it, so I should really just stop talking

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Yeah, I find very very very annoying when people think evolution created Nazism. They completely forgot about the centuries old Antisemitism that went on most of Europe.

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I was cured all right.

You have to remember though, Hitler was raised Roman Catholic and praised Christian heritage and German Christian culture. He was more Protestant towards the end but still.

Hitler was convinced that "A Positive Christianity" was the right way to go, a belief system convined that Jesus was a fighter against the Jewish people. This prompted Hitler to hate the Jewish people, and "purge the earth" of this danger to civilization. Hitler also believed in the writings of Joseph Arthur de Gobineau, the original master behind the idea of a "Master(Aryan) race", Arthur is also called the father of modern racial demography.

Saying that Hitler and Nazism is directly related to evolution is a load of bull.

Do a little research is all i can say. And I haven't even seen the documentary.